tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post1035479276767615595..comments2023-10-15T10:39:20.908-04:00Comments on One Frum Skeptic: Holy bloodfrumskeptichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02990363895869876238noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-81606337819191279702010-11-24T20:36:44.725-05:002010-11-24T20:36:44.725-05:00"It's so unlike OFS to take something at ..."It's so unlike OFS to take something at face value."<br /><br />Generally, yes. I don't usually believe much until I look into it. But like Frum single female pointed out, its a shock he even knew who the Vilna Goan was!<br /><br />Plus, this was funny and in fact possible. Doing the math, if there were huge families decendent from the Vilna Goan and he was from the youngest of each of the decedents, it happens to be likely he is of the 5th generation.frumskeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02990363895869876238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-13528928753702310522010-11-24T15:52:41.214-05:002010-11-24T15:52:41.214-05:00mlevin: thanks for the clarification.
I wonder wh...mlevin: thanks for the clarification.<br /><br />I wonder what 1:1000 of the general<br />Jewish population meant in terms<br />of proportion of boys of a given age.Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-5932904366053799242010-11-24T14:45:16.089-05:002010-11-24T14:45:16.089-05:00Not sure what you are not understanding. For every...Not sure what you are not understanding. For every 1000 Jews that lived in the village, the community had to deliver 7 males for the Tzar's army. <br /><br />On the Russian (goyish) side for every 1000 serfs (slaves) they had to deliver 5 to the Tzar's army.<br /><br />I don't know how often they counted, but it included men women babies and elderly.<br /><br />"with regard to snubbing those<br />who served in the military, it seems that not much has changed since then."<br /><br />Exactly. Ever since I learned it, I realized that those who claim unbroken Yihus were only able to accomplish it (if they came from Russian empire) if they abducted (or helped) other people's children and husbands.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-45789828527019000682010-11-24T13:39:42.179-05:002010-11-24T13:39:42.179-05:00Side note: with regard to snubbing those
who serve...Side note: with regard to snubbing those<br />who served in the military, it seems that<br />not much has changed since then.Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-71762495024652313592010-11-24T13:38:05.002-05:002010-11-24T13:38:05.002-05:00Clearly it did matter to OFS; she began
the anecdo...Clearly it did matter to OFS; she began<br />the anecdote with this information.<br />Gullibility is one of the last attributes<br />you'd associate with her.<br /><br />With regard to the ratios, again, were<br />they for that cohort, or from the Jewish<br />male population as a whole?Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-75618771384323553972010-11-24T13:28:00.540-05:002010-11-24T13:28:00.540-05:00The ratio wasn't the male population, but all ...The ratio wasn't the male population, but all the Jews living in the Shtetle/Town.<br /><br />It is possible that he miscounted a generation, but it's also possible that he didn't. It doesn't really matter.<br /><br />Side note: most of those who returned from 20 years of service were mistreated by the Jewish community because they had spent the past 20+ years completely unobservant, no shabbos, not kosher, and many gave in to tortures and converted to Christianity. So, instead of taking them in with open arms, the distinguished citizens of the shtetles snubbed them and even refused to acknowledge kinship.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-72041111261176419642010-11-24T13:14:06.307-05:002010-11-24T13:14:06.307-05:00Were those ratios for people in that
cohort, or th...Were those ratios for people in that<br />cohort, or the (male) population as<br />a whole?<br /><br />Is it possible this claim is, perhaps,<br />not entirely accurate, and the salesman's<br />memory may have been enhanced by the<br />prospect of winning orders?Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-14568647713335906182010-11-24T12:43:55.902-05:002010-11-24T12:43:55.902-05:00Walter, the 20 year military service was in the 19...Walter, the 20 year military service was in the 19th century. And no, there were no ways to dodge the draft, there were ways to abduct someone else instead of your child. Tzar wanted 7 boys/men for every 1000 people in the years 1826-1857 and 5 out of 1000 from 1857 and on. <br /><br />In addition there were pogroms and world wars which would have pushed off the marriage. And yes I am assuming he was a descendant via a paternal line, because the maternal line usually gets forgotten within a couple of generations.<br /><br />Moshe - it's called not seeing forest for the trees.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-61102416323919894342010-11-24T12:40:42.979-05:002010-11-24T12:40:42.979-05:00It's so unlike OFS to take something
at face v...It's so unlike OFS to take something<br />at face value.Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-75475542678244384922010-11-24T12:23:47.755-05:002010-11-24T12:23:47.755-05:00Walter, I don't understand why you're argu...Walter, I don't understand why you're arguing about him being or not being a descendant, when the post is about what he does with his belief that he is a descendant. Even if he's not and only believes that he is, it doesn't change the point of the post.Ookamikunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01145237927656807738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-16301160432645993572010-11-24T11:59:30.813-05:002010-11-24T11:59:30.813-05:00I've heard about this twenty year service.
Wha...I've heard about this twenty year service.<br />What I've never worked out was when this<br />requirement was in place. Was it the<br />all the seventeenth century? The<br />eighteenth?<br /><br />In any event, that might explain some<br />of the cases; it does not explain all<br />of them, particularly the later ones.<br />It also assumes that all the ancestors<br />were male.<br /><br />I would also ask: what proportion of<br />the VG's descendants served in the<br />military? The mythology is that there<br />were ways of dodging the draft.Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-49774835472209691272010-11-24T00:36:15.203-05:002010-11-24T00:36:15.203-05:00Walter - Actually it's very possible. Due to t...Walter - Actually it's very possible. Due to the conscription into the Russian Army which required 20 years of service to the Tzar, the men were not released until they were 38 years old. They would then go back home and marry much younger women and have many (there are stories of as many as 10 or 11) children with them.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-58967328938317270042010-11-23T23:15:06.828-05:002010-11-23T23:15:06.828-05:00Should've invited him for shabbat. ;)Should've invited him for shabbat. ;)Ookamikunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01145237927656807738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-66945236496811030022010-11-23T18:08:23.759-05:002010-11-23T18:08:23.759-05:00I suppose being five generations
from the VG is ju...I suppose being five generations<br />from the VG is just about possible.<br />His ancestors must all have been<br />born to oldish parents.<br /><br />Let's see. The VG died in 1797 at the<br />age of 77. He left a widow, his second<br />wife who bore him no children. His<br />first wife who did died in 1782 at<br />the age of 58. What's the youngest<br />child she could have left? Shall we<br />say 13? That would have him/her, first<br />generation descendant, born in 1769.<br /><br />Assuming that he/she had a child at 45,<br />the second generation descendant would<br />have been born in 1814. Assuming<br />again that he/she had a child at 45,<br />the third generation would have been<br />born in 1859. By the same assumption,<br />the fourth generation would have been<br />born in 1904, the fifth in 1949,<br />the sixth in 1994.<br /><br />It's possible, but it requires a long<br />succession of children born to<br />relatively old parents.Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-20111193930190254092010-11-16T15:28:14.867-05:002010-11-16T15:28:14.867-05:00I guess the answer is to move back int o the ghett...I guess the answer is to move back int o the ghetto so no one can ever have the opportunity to fry out.thinkingbochurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075387499687434088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-34658475238447688512010-11-14T01:22:45.938-05:002010-11-14T01:22:45.938-05:00there must be quite a story here. most reform jews...there must be quite a story here. most reform jews have never heard of the vilna gaon.frum single femalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592899863773572708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-7681754278324368242010-11-13T18:01:53.291-05:002010-11-13T18:01:53.291-05:00It's like the story with the rabbis and the ca...It's like the story with the rabbis and the cars...Rachelli Dreyfusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00965167720761031158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3683171330083869803.post-61535731825797267632010-11-12T00:24:22.853-05:002010-11-12T00:24:22.853-05:00You should have asked him why he/his ancestors wen...You should have asked him why he/his ancestors went off the derech.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.com