Potentially, a government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.
Ayn Rand
Shanon wrote that he was very familiar with the affects of the ayahuasca plant, having “partaken of the ... brew about 160 times in various locales and contexts.”
He had to have been high when writing this crazy idea. Like any good doctor this one must sample his medicine before prescribing it. How else would he ever know if it were "Kosher".
But in truth this idea isn't anything new. This is just some nut that looked on the Aish website and decided to try to disprove the age old proof. It's true because my father believed it, and his father, and his father etc. If you deny and say the original father was high...
Okay, let's assume that's true... why does it matter? I also heard recently that some historians believe Abraham Lincoln was gay. My response was, "And...?" If he was, does that take away or add to anything he did? Not really. I really don't understand why these people actually spend time researching these things. They don't change what has already happened.
Jessica - It's just part of the same old thing, let's discredit Moses and his message.
If one believes that Moses is high, then it goes to follow that Moses' message is just a bunch of delusions put together by a druggy. Baseless, worthless and one should not follow it.
mlevin, depends who you're speaking to though. many people think that druggies were geniuses; the beatles, jim morrison, jimi hendrix. Even if he was high, what he said was backed up by G-d, so, again, why does it matter?
The only day, today, to prove that Torah is true is by saying, "father told me so, because his father told him so, because his father told him so" and etc until you get to the end of the line and say "His father witnessed it". But if you say that Moses was high, then it follows that he got the rest of people high and they all were holucinating a bunch of stuff. Then Moses wrote it down and they are following that same bunch of nonsense ever since.
Accordingly there was never G-d, just drugs. Nice and easy way to discredit an old religion and way of life.
"The only day, today, to prove that Torah is true is by saying, "father told me so, because his father told him so, because his father told him so" and etc until you get to the end of the line and say "His father witnessed it""
That's no proof. Nobody along the way could have made an error in telling or understanding? Witnesses can't be mistaken? Stories can't be exaggerated?
This is pathetic. Every single one of these people who come up with these moronic ideas KNOWS G-d exists. They're just looking for a reason to deny it so that they're not bound to it. Can you spell COP-OUT?!
"single one of these people who come up with these moronic ideas KNOWS G-d exists."
It's interesting to me how people can claim to be so certain about the most inaccessible and transcendent source of reality.
Now I'm no fan of this silly drug idea, but there are plenty of honest-to-goodness skeptics who simply doubt the prima facie incredible stories of the Bible and the theological conclusions based on it.
Jessica - it's the same old. Repeat the lie and eventually people will believe it.
Here are a few lies that more and more people are believing:
Holocaust never happened. 9/11 was a work of Jews/Israel. Jews never lived in Israel.
So here the next step.
Jews never lived in Israel, they are just following delusions of drugs. Jews are evil. Jews are killing innocent palestinians in the name of illusion (Torah).
"Jews are killing innocent palestinians in the name of illusion (Torah)."
Frankly, if you think it's alright to kill Palestinians in the name of Torah then you have some serious ethical issues. Kill for national security, kill for the safety of Israeli citizens, but don't kill for the sake of Torah.
mlevin - yes, but who are the people that are going to believe that? people who already don't believe that the Jews received the Torah from G-d and those people that do believe that the Jews made 9/11 happen, etc. They're preaching to the converted only.
orthoprax - i don't think he was saying that at all. he was trying to make a point that that's what people would start to believe.
"people who already don't believe that the Jews received the Torah from G-d and those people that do believe that the Jews made 9/11 happen, etc. They're preaching to the converted only."
Why do you guys list these things as if they're on the same level? If you weren't socialized with belief in Orthodoxy growing up do you really think it would be some obvious conclusion? On the face of it, it's a pretty incredible story.
And given what we know today from modern science and Biblical criticism traditional beliefs are difficult to maintain.
This is a very different kind of issue than those who promote conspiracy theories.
orthoprax, i wasn't saying that those two things were equal to each other, but that those were the two DIFFERENT kinds of people that might actually take the "moses was high" theory seriously. "If you weren't socialized with belief in Orthodoxy growing up do you really think it would be some obvious conclusion?" Um, I wasn't brought up orthodox... this was a choice I made. And faith is hard for some, it is not hard for me. I don't need science or biblical criticism to prove my beliefs to me. I believe them out of my own volition.
"i wasn't saying that those two things were equal to each other, but that those were the two DIFFERENT kinds of people that might actually take the "moses was high" theory seriously."
Hmm. Fair enough.
"Um, I wasn't brought up orthodox... this was a choice I made."
Interesting. How'd you make the choice? Just curious.
Orthoprax - My brother started to become religious. It interested me so I started studying up on my own. I will admit, there were a few years there where I was just doing it because he (and eventually my parents too) were doing it. Then I hit a point when I was about 20 where I wasn't sure what I wanted or who I was. So I went searching. What I found when I got out was faith in G-d and, in my opinion, the best way to worship Him is through orthodox Judaism.
What denomination do you most relate to and why? Just curious as well.
"What I found when I got out was faith in G-d and, in my opinion, the best way to worship Him is through orthodox Judaism."
Well alright. But how'd you pick OJ? Does that include all the corollary beliefs common to it, i.e. Maimonides' 13?
Personally I was raised Modern Orthodox and so I tend to see less observant forms of Judaism as Lite and relatively transient. But intellectually I think much of typical OJ dogma is untenable given modern scholarship. So I end up being a skeptical but generally observant Jew. Post-denominational?
Jessica – 1. I am not a he. I am a woman. 2. Ignorant people will believe it. And they are the ones who vote and join armed forces. Just a few days ago I was talking to my boss (Mexican) and cubicle neighbor (Indian) about politics. Both of them are professionals highly educated in their fields. They think that the only reason Japan attacked US in Pearl Harbor was because US threw two atomic bombs on Japan. So, if history got that skewed 67 years later, think how it could be twisted 3,500 years later.
Orthopax “Frankly, if you think it's alright to kill Palestinians in the name of Torah then you have some serious ethical issues. Kill for national security, kill for the safety of Israeli citizens, but don't kill for the sake of Torah.”
You are slow today. Are you ok? Usually you are quick witted. Jessica clarified what I said
the only time in recent memory i have felt "spiritual" or that there might be a god after all has been while I was on hallucinogens. One common experience while on hallucinogens is to get this feeling that everything is connected to each other, and small coincidences takes on huge meaning (i've talked to several frequent acid and mushroom users about this, and many have experienced the same kind of feeling).
I can understand why someone who does a lot of hallucinogens would end up thinking that moses might have done the same...if he is an atheist already, and has had this experience, it is natural to think that "aha! moses must have been hallucinating, that explains why he thought he was talking to god!"
not that I think his theory has any credence, but it makes sense to me that he would think that way.
mlevin - sorry for the mix up. you don't actually have a blog so there was really no way for me to know either way. but sorry anyway.
orthoprax - i'm really not sure why you're so interested in my beliefs. i'm afraid i cant answer you're questions completely. but if you want to know more about my beliefs, check out my blog.
"i'm really not sure why you're so interested in my beliefs."
It's a fascinating thing for me how it is that people come to believe in religious claims. Whether they really thought about it or if they just accepted the whole cake after the cream (or kugel) tasted good. Or maybe they like the general form but still maintain serious issues with doctrine.
What are the thought processes, the inclinations, the goals? Was it a rational calculation or zealous emotivism? Theological awe or sociological comfort?
I'm also interested in how and why people lose religious belief. Religion in some ways is just this constant presence in life and I think it's fascinating how people intersect it at all levels.
"i'm afraid i cant answer you're questions completely"
Not an unusual response, but even interesting in itself!
"mlevin, depends who you're speaking to though. many people think that druggies were geniuses; the beatles, jim morrison, jimi hendrix. Even if he was high, what he said was backed up by G-d, so, again, why does it matter?"
I believe this is the point where we hit: "If it's real to me, do I have to prove it to you?"
25 comments:
Shanon wrote that he was very familiar with the affects of the ayahuasca plant, having “partaken of the ... brew about 160 times in various locales and contexts.”
He had to have been high when writing this crazy idea. Like any good doctor this one must sample his medicine before prescribing it. How else would he ever know if it were "Kosher".
But in truth this idea isn't anything new. This is just some nut that looked on the Aish website and decided to try to disprove the age old proof. It's true because my father believed it, and his father, and his father etc. If you deny and say the original father was high...
Okay, let's assume that's true... why does it matter? I also heard recently that some historians believe Abraham Lincoln was gay. My response was, "And...?" If he was, does that take away or add to anything he did? Not really. I really don't understand why these people actually spend time researching these things. They don't change what has already happened.
3 words...barack hussein obama...ready, set....blog!
Jessica - It's just part of the same old thing, let's discredit Moses and his message.
If one believes that Moses is high, then it goes to follow that Moses' message is just a bunch of delusions put together by a druggy. Baseless, worthless and one should not follow it.
mlevin, depends who you're speaking to though. many people think that druggies were geniuses; the beatles, jim morrison, jimi hendrix.
Even if he was high, what he said was backed up by G-d, so, again, why does it matter?
The only day, today, to prove that Torah is true is by saying, "father told me so, because his father told him so, because his father told him so" and etc until you get to the end of the line and say "His father witnessed it". But if you say that Moses was high, then it follows that he got the rest of people high and they all were holucinating a bunch of stuff. Then Moses wrote it down and they are following that same bunch of nonsense ever since.
Accordingly there was never G-d, just drugs. Nice and easy way to discredit an old religion and way of life.
"The only day, today, to prove that Torah is true is by saying, "father told me so, because his father told him so, because his father told him so" and etc until you get to the end of the line and say "His father witnessed it""
That's no proof. Nobody along the way could have made an error in telling or understanding? Witnesses can't be mistaken? Stories can't be exaggerated?
This is pathetic. Every single one of these people who come up with these moronic ideas KNOWS G-d exists. They're just looking for a reason to deny it so that they're not bound to it. Can you spell COP-OUT?!
"single one of these people who come up with these moronic ideas KNOWS G-d exists."
It's interesting to me how people can claim to be so certain about the most inaccessible and transcendent source of reality.
Now I'm no fan of this silly drug idea, but there are plenty of honest-to-goodness skeptics who simply doubt the prima facie incredible stories of the Bible and the theological conclusions based on it.
mlevin - but the people who are going to believe this drivel are people who already don't buy that story, so, again, why does it matter?
Jessica - it's the same old. Repeat the lie and eventually people will believe it.
Here are a few lies that more and more people are believing:
Holocaust never happened.
9/11 was a work of Jews/Israel.
Jews never lived in Israel.
So here the next step.
Jews never lived in Israel, they are just following delusions of drugs. Jews are evil. Jews are killing innocent palestinians in the name of illusion (Torah).
mlevin,
"Jews are killing innocent palestinians in the name of illusion (Torah)."
Frankly, if you think it's alright to kill Palestinians in the name of Torah then you have some serious ethical issues. Kill for national security, kill for the safety of Israeli citizens, but don't kill for the sake of Torah.
One Baruch Goldstein was plenty, thanks.
mlevin - yes, but who are the people that are going to believe that? people who already don't believe that the Jews received the Torah from G-d and those people that do believe that the Jews made 9/11 happen, etc.
They're preaching to the converted only.
orthoprax - i don't think he was saying that at all. he was trying to make a point that that's what people would start to believe.
Jessica,
"people who already don't believe that the Jews received the Torah from G-d and those people that do believe that the Jews made 9/11 happen, etc. They're preaching to the converted only."
Why do you guys list these things as if they're on the same level? If you weren't socialized with belief in Orthodoxy growing up do you really think it would be some obvious conclusion? On the face of it, it's a pretty incredible story.
And given what we know today from modern science and Biblical criticism traditional beliefs are difficult to maintain.
This is a very different kind of issue than those who promote conspiracy theories.
"And given what we know today from modern science and Biblical criticism traditional beliefs are difficult to maintain."
Yup. true. Questions of the age of the world, or how yehoshua stopped the sun from setting, and many more...
gets one thinking.
orthoprax, i wasn't saying that those two things were equal to each other, but that those were the two DIFFERENT kinds of people that might actually take the "moses was high" theory seriously.
"If you weren't socialized with belief in Orthodoxy growing up do you really think it would be some obvious conclusion?"
Um, I wasn't brought up orthodox... this was a choice I made. And faith is hard for some, it is not hard for me. I don't need science or biblical criticism to prove my beliefs to me. I believe them out of my own volition.
"i wasn't saying that those two things were equal to each other, but that those were the two DIFFERENT kinds of people that might actually take the "moses was high" theory seriously."
Hmm. Fair enough.
"Um, I wasn't brought up orthodox... this was a choice I made."
Interesting. How'd you make the choice? Just curious.
Orthoprax - My brother started to become religious. It interested me so I started studying up on my own. I will admit, there were a few years there where I was just doing it because he (and eventually my parents too) were doing it. Then I hit a point when I was about 20 where I wasn't sure what I wanted or who I was. So I went searching. What I found when I got out was faith in G-d and, in my opinion, the best way to worship Him is through orthodox Judaism.
What denomination do you most relate to and why? Just curious as well.
Jessica,
"What I found when I got out was faith in G-d and, in my opinion, the best way to worship Him is through orthodox Judaism."
Well alright. But how'd you pick OJ? Does that include all the corollary beliefs common to it, i.e. Maimonides' 13?
Personally I was raised Modern Orthodox and so I tend to see less observant forms of Judaism as Lite and relatively transient. But intellectually I think much of typical OJ dogma is untenable given modern scholarship. So I end up being a skeptical but generally observant Jew. Post-denominational?
Jessica –
1. I am not a he. I am a woman.
2. Ignorant people will believe it. And they are the ones who vote and join armed forces. Just a few days ago I was talking to my boss (Mexican) and cubicle neighbor (Indian) about politics. Both of them are professionals highly educated in their fields. They think that the only reason Japan attacked US in Pearl Harbor was because US threw two atomic bombs on Japan. So, if history got that skewed 67 years later, think how it could be twisted 3,500 years later.
Orthopax “Frankly, if you think it's alright to kill Palestinians in the name of Torah then you have some serious ethical issues. Kill for national security, kill for the safety of Israeli citizens, but don't kill for the sake of Torah.”
You are slow today. Are you ok? Usually you are quick witted. Jessica clarified what I said
interesting...
the only time in recent memory i have felt "spiritual" or that there might be a god after all has been while I was on hallucinogens. One common experience while on hallucinogens is to get this feeling that everything is connected to each other, and small coincidences takes on huge meaning (i've talked to several frequent acid and mushroom users about this, and many have experienced the same kind of feeling).
I can understand why someone who does a lot of hallucinogens would end up thinking that moses might have done the same...if he is an atheist already, and has had this experience, it is natural to think that "aha! moses must have been hallucinating, that explains why he thought he was talking to god!"
not that I think his theory has any credence, but it makes sense to me that he would think that way.
mlevin - sorry for the mix up. you don't actually have a blog so there was really no way for me to know either way. but sorry anyway.
orthoprax - i'm really not sure why you're so interested in my beliefs. i'm afraid i cant answer you're questions completely. but if you want to know more about my beliefs, check out my blog.
Jessica,
"i'm really not sure why you're so interested in my beliefs."
It's a fascinating thing for me how it is that people come to believe in religious claims. Whether they really thought about it or if they just accepted the whole cake after the cream (or kugel) tasted good. Or maybe they like the general form but still maintain serious issues with doctrine.
What are the thought processes, the inclinations, the goals? Was it a rational calculation or zealous emotivism? Theological awe or sociological comfort?
I'm also interested in how and why people lose religious belief. Religion in some ways is just this constant presence in life and I think it's fascinating how people intersect it at all levels.
"i'm afraid i cant answer you're questions completely"
Not an unusual response, but even interesting in itself!
"mlevin, depends who you're speaking to though. many people think that druggies were geniuses; the beatles, jim morrison, jimi hendrix.
Even if he was high, what he said was backed up by G-d, so, again, why does it matter?"
I believe this is the point where we hit: "If it's real to me, do I have to prove it to you?"
Thus no further discussion can take place.
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