Thursday, July 23, 2009

Curruption bust

I'm sure many (if not all) of you have heard what happened with the Rabbi's, a bunch of politicians and a successful FBI bust.

Once again, frummies have been caught in a white-collar crime... they've been laundering money...

What else is new?

Well, actually something is new- body parts. For the first time ever I've heard about frummies profiting off of organs!!!!!! BODY PART TRAFICKING!

I mean really?!

As if laundering money isn't bad enough, we gotta add ORGANS into the picture!

The worst part about this, was that I received an email to "pray for the Rabbis of the community"


They want me to PRAY for these people?! Why?? They did something illegal. They deserve to pay the consequences of it.

Aside from that, they once again allowed the title of "Rabbi" to be demeaned by their selfish acts.

Pray for them, I certainly will not.

I'm embarrassed.


Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

It's really upsetting. My parents went to a bris 6am by avenue M and saw all the FBI stuff going on. Then my mother told me that she had worked for one of the Rabbi's a bunch of years ago- before she got married. It's so sad, that someone you had looked up to and trusted did such a horrible thing.

The new governer has a 1 or 2 year old kid, it's crazy, what he just did to his family, poor kid!

Frum and Rational said...

It is so sad to see this sort of thing happen; it is a huge chillul hashem and perpetuates the cheap/greedy Jew stereotype. As the first commenter on that YWN article said, it is a shame that certain individuals within the frum community have not come to terms with the fact that this is not eastern Europe, and we do not have a government which is plotting to kill us, and as such, there is absolutely no excuse to ignore the law.

frum single female said...

what madoff did was bad enough, this circus is yet a new level.

Off the Derech said...

>As the first commenter on that YWN article said, it is a shame that certain individuals within the frum community have not come to terms with the fact that this is not eastern Europe, and we do not have a government which is plotting to kill us, and as such, there is absolutely no excuse to ignore the law.

I don't think their mentality has anything to do with Europe. I know people who do this kind of thing. I would say they're brought up like beheimas, but I wouldn't say they do a little crime to get back for Europe. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Kudos to FS for not making any excuses.

Frum and Rational said...

otd- I'm not talking about a european mentality in terms of getting back at anyone, I am referring to it in terms of the mentality some people have of creating their own shtetl-like environment,where it was probably necessary to do some things which would be considered corrupt to survive.

mlevin said...

OTD - The reason they do it is because they deemed all honest work for men assur and shameful. But reality is that without work there is no money and without money one cannot survive. So, how does one go about getting money if he cannot go to work? He steals. That's right, money laundering is a form of stealing, same as getting welfare and other goverment support programs when one is capable of supporting himself...

This is not about the individuals this is about the whole community. This stealing will continue until community will start shunning those and their families who got convicted of white color crimes, instead of praying for them to be found innocent. It's not like any one really believes that these people are innocent, they just don't think that they did anything wrong.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

You know what, I changed my mind, I think there may be a chance that they are innocent, actually they are innocent until proven guilty.

It's starting to sound like this Dweck guy set them up, and that's all they did wrong, perhaps they weren't doing anything wrong beforehand. We'll have to wait to find out.

In my eyes, someone who decides not to work, and learns instead, is doing so because they think it's the righteous thing to do, in that case I can't imagine them stealing and doing crimes.

Those that do steal, and do tax evasion and such, are the exception.

mlevin said...

JSB - how many people in BP and LAkewood are not working and receiving goverment handouts in a form of section 8, foodstamps, medicaid and etc? This is stealing. They are stealing. They are not a minority but a majority and they are a norm.

Off the Derech said...

>OTD - The reason they do it is because they deemed all honest work for men assur and shameful.

That's one of the reasons.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- umm... I undestand judging ppl favorably, and all that. but its really common knowledge that frum jews or "frum" any religion tend to commit white collar crimes. they have the ability to abuse not only the non-profit status' of their shuls, but also the political status of their community. a politician alows this to go on, and he receives all the votes from all the ppl in the school, shul or wherever this frummy is involved in. that's A LOT of people- and ofcourse the politcian profits which is sometimes more valuable then the election.

now, aside from that, I can understand the judging favorably, but u can't possibly believe that ALL those people were set up?? I mean, come on, let's be realistic. the FBI does happen to have a pretty good track record, and for them to be misled about allthose people, because of one guy, is just unbelievable.


Rabbis messed up. what's new?

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter- also eant to say-

as mlevin said: section 8, welfare and food stamps are meant for people who cannot work for whatever reason, to help them until they get back on their feet.

those programs were not put into existence for just any bum who didn't feel like working, to be able to not work.

kolel is a system of people who don't feel like working because they think gd sent them to learn. unfortunately for them, that doesn't translate into "cannot work due to unfortunate circumstance"... which therefore means, they're not supposed to be receiving the money.

which means- they are stealing.
that cannot be justified.

Off the Derech said...

ML: >It's not like any one really believes that these people are innocent, they just don't think that they did anything wrong.

You contradict yourself. What does that mean? That the law and halacha have nothing to do with each other? Thank you.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: Your right, they do have the ability to abuse the system, but it doesn't mean they necessarily do. To be truthful though, I do know one person who has a shul, and writes out checks from the shul for his own personal use so that he shouldn't have to pay taxes on it. He reasons that for many years before he turned the shul into a non profit, he has been using his own personal money on the shul, and had to pay taxes for that, so he calls it evening out. I actually have a recording of this. But yet I wouldn't want to get him in trouble for it, my brother said the guy could end up in jail. But he's a really earnest Jew, that believes in Hashem and everything, maybe he'll stop writing out those checks and that will be his teshuva and everything will be done with.

Your right, it does sound crazy for them all to be set up and for the FBI to be wrong about this. But it could be that one or two are innocent in this. 44 sounds like a lot of people for them all to be guilty!

About the section 8 and all that, your right, people shouldn't abuse that, and I do believe in people working. But yet, there could be those where the wives are working, but yet not earning enough, it's not like their totally relying on the government, they are doing their part, and it's very hard. There's no rule that says only a man is allowed to work, women are allowed to also. There are working families where the man works and the wife doesn't, so now because of modern times, there's a lot of Non Jewish families with stay at home dads and working Moms, could be they get government help too, are they also stealing? I don't think so!

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Off the Derech: she means that "doing something wrong" and "innocent" are two separate things.

Innocent = not committing a crime

not doing anything wrong = committing a crime that's rationalized.

Off the Derech said...

Jewish Side:

You're making excuses.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- this isn't about a particular gender not working. if the wife is working and is able to support a family while her hubby learns, so be it. once they relaize she can no longer afford, they still cannot run to the government. HE has to get his tuchas up and find a job. not getting a job and going on welfare is just as bad whether or not his wife is working or not.

same goes the other way. if the wife is a stay at home mom, and the living expenses become unbearable, she should get a job. going on welfare or any other program is abuse.

- yes, its possible one or 2 are innocent, but I'm not betting on it.

Off the Derech said...

How can he get a job without an education.

mlevin said...

OTD - I was not making excuses. I did not claim that they didn't do anything wrong. I was responding to "Pray for them" Text where these people don't belief that arrested rabbis are innocent, but they want them found innocent because they don't consider what they did wrong. NOT MY OPINION at all.

Babysitter - a stay at home mom and collecting goverment programs is acceptable if and only if she is unable to find a job that will cover the babysitter + commuting expenses. But we all know that in these frummy families, fathers are not stay at home dads. They spend all day in Yeshivahs learning. Instead they could be spending this time earning money. As far as the family is concerned there is no lose in the-personal-attention-father-time when he switches from learning to earning.

mlevin said...

He could easily get a minimum wage job loading/unloading trucks in the supermarket or something similar. Eventually he could either educate himself and get something better or get a promotion and be a superwiser. Eventually, his children will learn a lesson, that education means money, and within a generation or two this family may crawl out of poverty.

Off the Derech said...

ML: I didn't say you're making excuses.

See this blog.

Off the Derech said...

Right. Because his schools prepare him for minimum wage work loading trucks. Yessss.

frumskeptic said...

OTD- frum lack-off education is a totally different issue. I'm trying to keep the discussion simple. he learns, his family can no-longer afford to live on his wifes income, he should find a job.
an able-bodied human shouldn't be on welfare unless due to unfortunate circumstance.

what are the chances a politician in NJ right now isn't receiving bribes right now to turn his eyes away from what's happening in lakewood, and all the gov't program abuse there?

mlevin- I totally disagree with u. doesn't matterwhich parent is/isnt working. welfareshould only be a last resort.

in the example ure giving, you'll end up with a bunch of kollel wives (the few who actually have good jobs) sticking to the sucky jobs (ie being a morah), just because they can still justifiably get welfare, according to you.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Off the derech: about making excuses. See the way I look at it is like this. People like scandals, because they like to gossip, it's an exciting thing, so people automatically assume the worst, because it "sounds the best". This is when you don't know the people involved, because it doesn't effect you. However, if it were to be a family member of yours, or someone you know, you wouldn't be so close to judge.

My professor gave this example, where if the cops were after your brother, and they come to your house asking for him, would you willingly give over his location? or would you say you don't know where he is? most people would choose the latter because they are brought up with family values, that you stick up for each other.

About education, it is possible to get a job without an education. As a matter of fact my brother didn't go to college and got a job. And I have another brother that did go to college, and has no job. I myself graduated college and don't have a job, but then again I'm not looking as much as I should.

Mlevin: your right that he would be learning and not staying at home. But you know what I actually don't know any men in Kollel, only maybe rich ones. So I can't really judge this whole thing.

FrumSkeptic: you know I do agree with you. I believe if one spouse isn't enough then the other should work, unless it's not possible, and that people shouldn't be on welfare and stuff when they don't need too.

Like I said to Mlevin, I actually don't know anyone that is the way you describe, on section 8 and all that and learning. So I don't know why I'm "defending" it.

The only thing is that i have a friend whose married, and she works as a teacher and is in college going for OT or something like that - the typical frum girl stuff. Her husband is learning, but he's also in college I think, so he does plan on working. And right now as a young couple with both of them in school and only her working and a baby on the way, they don't have a lot of money, so I believe she might get food stamps, but I'm not even sure. The fact that her husband is learning doesn't mean they shouldn't be helped.

Off the Derech said...

Babysitter: If you see them all as part of your family, that's part of the problem. Of course you'll try to excuse them.

FS: education has everything to do with it. Compare the rates of yeshiva boys going on to university, and the rate of public school boys. That's all you need to know.

I liked your post though, and credit you on my blog.

Off the Derech said...

I didn't go to college either and have a job. Making bupkes. I can hardly support one person, let alone ten.

Off the Derech said...

Do you have any idea how high the standard of living is in the frum community? You need hundreds of thousands a year.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

frumskeptic said...

otd- I didn't mean that lack of education has nothing to dowith this. I said if family cannot afford it, he shoudl stop learning and go work. I didn't want to get into the complications of that (what you said, they have no education). I just ment to state a point,that they were stealing due to the fact that they go on govt programs instead of sending men to work, regardless of the factthe men prob can't work.

babysitter- ur friend is stealing. she allowed herself to be put into a situation which would require her to rely on govt.
she coulda waited to get married until she had a better job or better savings. or, since she's married already, she shoulda been on birth control until after she done with school.

govt handouts are not there so frummies could reproduce like rabbits without financial consequence.

mlevin said...

FS - No, my example would only work if she was a mora and he was a truck loader. It wouldn't work if he's in kollel because him being in collel doesn't eliminate babysitting expenses.

Babysitter - about your example, it all depends why police want my brother. If it's because he is a child molestor, yes I would, if on the other hand he was protecting his friend who was caught with an ounce of pot, I would protect him.

These people are not educated to get any jobs. Some barely able to read in English. They don't know how to turn on a computer and don't understand secular community. They are not qualified for any jobs, because they are not educated. This has nothing to do with college's certification on certain knowledge.

The couple going to school with a baby you describe as a typical frum stuff is also a typical example of stealing from the goverment. How dare they get married and have children if they don't have sufficient income? They depended on goverment to care for their expenses from the get go. And don't think that foodstamps are the only handouts they are receiving. There is also college tuition assistance and many other forms. Yes, they are stealing from the goverment.

Off the Derech said...

Here's the catch: they're not being told to learn IF they can afford it. They're being told to learn no matter what*.

Off the Derech said...
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Off the Derech said...
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Off the Derech said...

ML makes some great points.

Off the Derech said...

Think Mafia.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Off the Derech: but you know what? Just the other night R' Frand said the lesson we can take from all this financial mess - the market recession, is to not spend money we don't have. To not use credit cards when we don't have money to pay for it, to not make lavish simchas etc.

FrumSkeptic: we once had this discussion already. (Funny how it comes back to certain topics). I know that your able to have a long engagement, but not everyone else is like that, and not everyone can wait to have babies so long. It could be she's not even on food stamps, I just made that up guessing that she is. But really if I can't wait to have a baby, if I find the right person, I wouldn't be able to wait for at least one baby!

Mlevin: of course if their a danger to society and they need help then you would try to get them help, but if like you said they got caught up in something that was a one time thing, you would protect them.

like I told FrumSkeptic, I really don't think we can tell people not to get married or have children. I'm sorry, but I think marriage and babies comes before money!

If I knew I had the right person to marry, and that I could have a baby, I would jump at the opportunity no matter what! People who know who they will marry are really lucky, and I just don't think it's fair to tell them to push it off. (especially if their shomer, lots of issues can come up)

Off the Derech said...

Babysitter: Don't give me BS. They're crawling in debt. There's no way out.

Off the Derech said...

It's funny in a sad way.
I leave this cult, and find all these people who, nebach, think they're part of a normal society.

Moshe said...

Are all of them guilty? Let's say not all of them were actively involved but if you have a secretary or accountant who knows what's going on but continues working there, wouldn't you say she's guilty?

A frummie guy get a low paying job?! Yeah right. Low paying jobs are even more assur than regular or high paying jobs!

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Off the Derech: I didn't say their not crawling in debt, I'm saying the Rabbis recognize it and are mussaring them about it!

and yea we are part of a normal society!

Moshe: that's a different story, I've learned about many cases in auditing about that exact thing, and they questioned whether the auditors/accounts are guilty. Each case is different, there's 1- Fraud, which is the worst, and makes you guilty, 2- Gross Negligence 3- negligence. And other stuff I don't remember. But I do remember that if the accountant shows that they had due diligence then they are innocent, they just have to prove they were doing their job the right way.

frumskeptic said...


"I know that your able to have a long engagement, but not everyone else is like that,"

Believe me, I do not like the fact that I'm having a long engagement, and neither does my fiance. We *had* to have a long engagement, because we realized the impracticality of having gotten married quicker.

Believe me, we don't have extra special super powers that make us more able to deal with our situation than any other frum person. In fact, if anything, we should have it harder to deal with, because we actually knew each other before engagement.

"and not everyone can wait to have babies so long. "

Really? HOw about the girls who don't conceive right away? Gd MAKES them wait, why can't girls wait on purpose?

I don't see how you don't associate R' Frand's speech (that you're referring to) about not spending money one does not have, with putting yourself into a situation of actually NEEDING to spend money one does not have? If a mommy has a crappy job and a daddy doesn't work, and they have a baby, how the hell are they supposed to avoid debt???????

"It could be she's not even on food stamps, "

Whether or not she's going on food stamps doesn't fully take away the problem. Say she'll have just enough money to avoid gov't handouts. YOu know what that means? SHe'll have ZERO in savings. You know what it means when someone has ZERO in savings? THey'll eventually go into debt...especially if they're frum, because either another baby will come too quickly, or all the new baby expenses will rise too sharply; with a low income and no savings to fall back on, the only answer is debt.

"if I find the right person, I wouldn't be able to wait for at least one baby!"

Frum people have your attitude. It is because of this attitude, in which one acts on what they want, rather than on what is best for them, that they find themselves in debt.

Wanting a baby is fine. Babies are the future of not just your family, but of the existence of the entire world, but that does not mean that 9 months after marriage a baby must pop-out if there's little or no money to support it.

Frum debt is not stuck in high costs of simchas, most of it is stuck in having a ridiculously low level of financial literacy. Blaming credit cards is just a cop out, the real problem is the immaturity and the "i want, i get" lifestyle that starts in the beginning of marriage and then continues when they compete with the Shwartze's on who can pop-out more kids.

frumskeptic said...

Moshe- they're all guilty. What are the chances in the 10 years the FBI was investigating them, they screwed up and not ALL of them are guilty DIRECTLY?

THe saddest is, is what the ladies at my office pointed out, they'll get good lawyers (provided by the frummies who don't like their dirty laundry exposed) and they'll make sure no one goes to prison for this.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: wow!

Ok, you win!

Off the Derech said...

How much time have you spent in one of their yeshivas? I didn't think so.
Spend eight years in top yeshivas like I have, then we'll talk.

Off the Derech said...

Culture of silence.
With your excuses, you enable the criminals.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: I thought it over, over Shabbos. I know you have your view, and logically it may make sense, so for you it can be right. But I view it differently, specifically 2 points. I know you will disagree with them, but I still hold these views.

1- So long as a family qualifies for government aid, and they aren't lying or hiding any off the books cash, then they qualify, and they aren't stealing.

2- when it comes to having babies- bringing life into this world, Hashem will provide. That it is not the same as wanting a new car/house.

That's just my opinion, you can disagree and keep yours, but I just want to make it clear what I think.

And I'm sorry that it's tough for you too, I wish you luck and success and all the rest!

frumskeptic said...


I was going to give you an entire explanation about why you're so terribly wrong. But i realized its not worth it. YOu have no concept whatsoever as to why these people are doing anything wrong. and by me trying to explain it, we'll only go in circles.

Stealing is wrong. Using government aid when you're able-bodied is wrong. THIS IS STEALING. By merely not lying about being poor, is not enough. These people are lying about their ability to take care of themselves.

And as a taxpayer, I feel I shouldn't have to provide for these people. I feel these people should be handing me money, because unlike them, I actually abide by the law. I work and I pay taxes. ANd it irrates the hell out of me that people who claim to be religios, have no problem allowing MY taxes to go up, because they feel they have some gd given calling to work.

Sorry babysitter, this isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. What you're promoting is hardcore wrong. Your view is merely a cover up for all frummies do wrong. You just don't want to view your community in the light it should be viewed in.

2- If hashem provides for babies, how come you have all those frummies truly improverished? Even the ones with good jobs, most of them are in debt?


Btw, The RamBam mentioned somewhere that a person should not take charity if he can afford a little bit of wine and bread for shabbos. If he can afford that much, he doesn't deserve tzedakah.

Gov't programs= tzedakah.

frumskeptic said...

gd given calling to learn*

Moshe said...

Don't forget that besides our taxes going to them, they have the nerve to call and ask for more money, mandatory dinner "donation" in yeshiva, and the ever rising yeshiva costs to offset the yeshiva's kollel. And the boo hoo 10+ children families in Israel who send letters about not being able to afford to pay for wedding and buy a house. I'd like someone to buy me a house.

Moshe said...

And afterwards, are they even grateful for the money? Nope. Working people are evil and being like them or associating with them will make your kids go OTD.

frumskeptic said...

Moshe- you're right.
Id like someone to buy me a car, and a house. Possibly pay for a vacation or two.

Heck... Id like a lot of things. I'd like hachnosses kallah pay for my pots and pans, and pay for my furniture. Why is it that my fiance and I have to pay for everything,because we're honest enough to get jobs, but these people feel everyone owes them something because they allow themselves to be poverty stricken?

Bothers the hell out of me.

You know what's the most fascinating? With the wholeMadoff thing, and now this whole new addition of embarrassing frum busts, the yshiva system is gonna lose more money. And guess what they'll do?

They wont send people to work, they'll try to sucker the rich out of more donations (even tho they're already supporting their 4-5 kollel kids and pay ing for like 8 grand children's tuition dollars)

Don't they realize money runs out?!

Off the Derech said...

Don't forget, Torah is the most important thing in the world.

Off the Derech said...

Hashem will always help.

remy said...

I have debated posting a comment - for I know I will get attacked, but decided to do so anyway.
FS - while I agree with many of your views regarding government handouts and kollel, I feel some of your views are quite immature. What you do not take into account is real life. Up to a year ago I sounded like you - but have now changed my tune.
My husband and I are both in graduate school with very little income, and I was against having a child or anyone else having a child, for that matter, while in this type of situation. However, I then found out that conceiving would be very difficult for me and I would probably only be able to have a child thru IVF. IVF can cost about $40,000 - money I did not have. Yet - I decided not to wait, for if I waited and did not conceive I would never be able to live with myself. Furthermore - up to this point I did not either understand how someone runs up debt (besides student loans which for many are inevitable.) However, I now owe much money and am happily pregnant with my first child. I have no regrets. I am also on WIC - and was told by the person from the government agency that WIC was started for people like me. People who are in school and working but need help to get by for a short while.
What I learned from all this - Don't be so quick to judge. There is so much more going on than what meets the eye.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: I'm not talking about families with 10 kids where the husband isn't working, or families where the husband is learning instead of working and has lots of expenses that he's relying on the government for. I'm talking about a couple that is starting off, where they are both in school, and where the husband plans on working.

I googled to see who qualifies for food stamps and it says:

"You will get a job if you are
able and aren't working now."

So they take into account that you will get a job if your able but just aren't working at that time.

For every story you bring one way, I can tell you the other way. I've heard 2 stories about people having babies and being provided for. One person I personally heard about, where the father got a job when he had children, then once they moved out he lost his job.

Also what if you decide to wait to have a baby till you have the money and then you never get the money? then you won't ever have a baby. What if you just need to take the leap of faith, have a baby and then you'll get the money.

I'm not saying to have a million babies this way. But just the first.

I do agree that it's not right for people to spend government money they are getting on luxuries. I'm just talking about the basics, to help feed the family, or pay for rent, utilities, whatever it may be.

Also, you should know people that have these organizations collecting for them feel really embarrassed, there's a lot of shame in it, I don't think they willingly would ask for help and take part in it.

I know a girl personally, she actually blogs about it, I'll give you a link so you can read about it. The letter that started it all.

I do think it's important for people to work, and if more people start working then that's great. I'm not advocating the Kollel lifestyle.

Moshe said...

We were eligible for WIC with Shlomik. I wish we were with NY too. For those who are not nursing, formula is very, very expensive. $100/month for just food for an infant is very unfair. There is no way that it costs close to $25 to make a can of powder. Since the government doesn't regulate the pricing, the WIC at least offsets the costs.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Moshe: My little sister also had special formula delivered to the house, I remember it being expensive. I don't think the government helped pay for it.

Although I do remember my mother saying that when my sister was in "step by step" they paid for 3 hours of a cleaning lady to come to the house and help out and to watch the babies, but my mother of course didn't leave them alone in the house.

Also, my parents have to pay a lot of money for my sister's special schooling which the government doesn't pay for! it's almost the combination price of 8 kids tuitions! (if you don't spend your money one way, Hashem will find a way for you to spend it).

and see there's nothing wrong with getting government help when you need it.

frumskeptic said...

remy- Your situation, where it would be a fortune to conceive, I'd say go ahead and have a baby. I'm not talking about people like yourself. I'm talking about the people who go into marriage, neither side has a job (the girl maybe a morah or assistant morah), while the guy has no intention to ever work, and then 9 months later pops out baby #1. These people have no concept of what the value of a dollar is. THey cannot possibly be mentally nor financially ready to raise a baby. On the otherhand, it actually makes more financial sense to have the baby right away. Because if you wouldn't conceive now, you'd probably go into some program to help you pay for the cost of conception later, which would come out to more money than doing it now naturally. But people in your situation are not the norm.

PLUS, (this goes for Moshe & babysitter as well) I view WIC in a different category than other gov't aid (with an exception). Having a baby is expensive and with insurance and all that, even people who have jobs and so forth, find themselves having it hard to manage the financial burden of a baby. WIC helps them out, and it CANNOT be a permanant arrangment. (because once the baby is old enough, its taken away), whereas foodstamps and other such programs last forever.
I'm against government welfare programs, generally, including WIC. I think they're counterproductive to societal progress. But I do have levels of how I view these programs.
When I'm completely against WIC, is when people EXPECT to get it. Like my friend only got married by chupa (not a civil wedding). She had a baby, said she was a single mom, and she qualified for WIC and other stuff. SHe didn't need it. And its not just my friend. She got advice like this from her friends and other such people.

In the meantime, I don't consider education a debt that one should hide from. Education is like a mortgage. You need it or else you can't really live. ANd in the long run its more worth it to buy a house and go into debt (mortgage) than to continue to rent. Basically, its an investment.

However, if you cannot even afford to pay rent or for food or for electricity because of this "investment" one should definitely postpone expenses, and often the most major expense is a baby. Government programs are not there for everyone to just act on what they want.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter- Food stamps are meant for people LOOKING for a job and are unable. Not kollel people, or people who put themselves into desperate situation where they NEED gov't programs.

This all falls back into debt. These people SPEND money they do not have. EXACTLY what caused this economic crisis. The husband of your friend should get a part-time job. Until then, he isn't "looking" in the sense the gov't means.

I understand what you mean baby #1, not all 10 babies. But Why does baby #1 have to come 9 months later? Even from the couples standpoint its healthier for the marriage if the baby doesn't come right away. The couple will have more time to really get to know each other.

And if you have no money, and no NEED to conceive, I find it truly selfish and irresponsible to go ahead and conceive, and take other people's money.

I also do understand what you mean about "leap of faith" but one has to be honest about what they mean.

If you know you can hardly afford rent and food,and you have 2 yrs left of school (meaning unable to get a better paying job for two years), its no leap of faith to have that baby, you're hard core sticking yourself into a poverty stricken situation. If on the other hand, one or both of you are working, and you are managing to pay rent and food and still have a little bit of money in savings (because you're not living paycheck to pay check), I'm for these people having a baby, infact, I strongly recommend it. But again, You can't really know how you are doing financially until the first few months of marriage,because if you're like most frum couples, you haven't lived alone, and and have no idea how much bills will cost. So even if you calculate your rent is affordable and you think you can manage on your old wardrobe, you really have no idea what other expenses incur... or how expenses those expenses really are.

That man that found a job then he lost it when his kids grew up, even if that story were true,
he *was* LOOKING for a job. How is a kollel couple, which is NOT looking for a job, gonna somehow find money, to pay for their first baby? Or how is your friend going to find money to pay for that baby? Is hashem going to program her hubby into taking that part time job when he sees stuff becomes expensive?

Oh, and I don't believe people are ashamed to take handouts. If they were, the concept of taking handouts wouldn't be so popular.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: "If on the other hand, one or both of you are working, and you are managing to pay rent and food and still have a little bit of money in savings (because you're not living paycheck to pay check), I'm for these people having a baby, infact, I strongly recommend it"

That is the situation I am describing. And btw, it's later than 9 months too, I mean a year later.

I thought I mentioned that he was looking for a job!

I dunno, I guess it depends on the person. Your right some might not be embarrassed. I actually had this lady practically demands me give her money, and said "If you have a radio (I was listening to akapella music) then you can have money to give" I told her sorry that I had no money on me, (which was true - I had no change or small amounts of money, I had a 20, but I'm not giving that to a tzedaka collector who was being rude). Such people feel no busha. But most normal people wouldn't sit out in front of a shul to collect money unless it was really needed. Unless their fake, but that's a different story.

Lvnsm27 said...

It's very sad the things going on, which inspired my recent post

FJB said...

In exactly this vein:
Why do people write articles like these that are so antisemitic, but posing as telling the truth about how Jews have double standards for themselves and other?
Go see if you can lend some pro-Jewish commentary please.

Moshe said...

"But most normal people wouldn't sit out in front of a shul to collect money unless it was really needed."

Ha! They're not even Jewish! Gypsies mostly. They stole in Russia, then came here and continued the business. I saw the one by Glatt Mart talking on her cell while she thought people weren't watching. The ones by Landau's curse like you wouldn't believe.

Off the Derech said...


I agree with every word the author wrote in that article.

Off the Derech said...

You don't know what you're defending.

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

Moshe: yea I got an e-mail about those gypsy ones. yea, so their a different story.

remy said...

OTD - you agree with anything against OJ. You are so full of hate that most of your arguments are not cogent. What made you this bitter?

Off the Derech said...

Remy: That's not true. You have no idea who I am. Not everybody who's not a part of your cult hates you.

aztecqueen2000 said...

FrumSkeptic: I assume that you are living at home, and have done so all your life.
The fact is that even with a college degree, there is no guarantee of a job that can provide even a basic standard of living (and by that I mean the ability to live in more than one room and live on something other than pasta). I had a job that paid close to $30K a year and provided benefits, and even by myself (read--no kids), still lived in a rented shed and ate a lot of pasta. (Cheapest thing you can get kosher).
Point is--while I avoided gov't assistance, not everyone in my situation can. The unexpected can wipe out savings. This doesn't mean a baby--it can mean an illness or car breakdown. Also, it's next to impossible to find a well-paying job if one has to leave early every Friday to make Shabbos.

mlevin said...

aztecqueen - where did FS claim that she has problems with those who lost their jobs or got sick and are on goverment support?

She is objecting to those who have no job (or working as morahs) and are in college marrying men who do not want to ever go to work. She is objecting to them because they are PLANNING to rely on government for their parnasa even before they marry, and even before they have children and even before something unexpected strikes. As a matter of fact, they are planning to be taken care by the government for the rest of their lives.

These people are stealing. These people are thieves. These people are only pretending to be frum by dressing in a uniform, because they are violating the 10 commandments.

tesyaa said...

And, AztecQueen, I don't agree that it's next to impossible to find a well paying job if you're Shomer Shabbos. Possibly, a little harder, but possibly not. Employers are willing to be flexible -- ever heard of Flextime? Come in early on Fridays, or work from home Saturday night, and switch Yomim Tovim with nonJewish holidays. There are lots of frum Jews in corporate jobs; how do you think they do it?

Anonymous said...

Being distantly aquainted with the kidney salesman it seems that it's a very thin case because he mixed business with volunteers.The profit margin is narrow &overhead for such a venture is very high,tranport housing, clinic without guarantee of a match.
And you being a conservative with libertarian sympathies would supposedly promote legalization of kidney sales just as baby surrogacy

Anonymous said...

Sorry, being a Chassid I'm indeed lacking in computer comprehension
+ English 3rd language I apologize if incoherent.Back to previous baby surrogacy for profit or blood donations voluntarily. anyways I enjoy your reading your crowds outlook in life.
Tihyeh Chazakah.
Old Style European

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter- maybe I missed he was looking for a job. From what I got in my head, was that he was learning and he'd look for a job later on. Not now.
You said the situation is different if the people are fake... honestly, how many frum people do you know who are *not* fake? How surprising was the news of this bust? Who actually considers it "news" that frum people committed yet another white-collar crime? WE live in sad world. The part thats most frustrating about this, is that there were "big" rabbi's involved in this, as well as Organ trafficking.
FJB- Why don't you go look up US prisons and count the prisons in the US that have kosher food as well as enough men to make a FRUM minyan. Then lets talk about who is an anti-semite; Me, for being pissed off that "frum" Jews commit horrible crimes and aren't even embarrassed of it, or the "frum" JEws sitting in Prison after they stole/laundered/embezzled thousands-millions of dollars. Go take an ethics course.
Aztecqueen- I'm a bit confused about what your point is.
"The fact is that even with a college degree, there is no guarantee of a job that can provide even a basic standard of living (and by that I mean the ability to live in more than one room and live on something other than pasta). "
Did I say otherwise? I'm very well aware of that fact.
"Point is--while I avoided gov't assistance, not everyone in my situation can. "
That's nice that you managed without gov't assistance. I'm confused as to why you think others cannot manage like you did. Maybe they should learn a thing or two about being frugal.
"The unexpected can wipe out savings This doesn't mean a baby--it can mean an illness or car breakdown. "
I am very aware of that. We were talking about babies. A baby you can postpone until you get a raise or a promotion, or until you have a penny or two saved so that you can pay rent without worrying how you'll eat next week. An illness is a very good reason to go onto gov't aid. I wasn't aware that I said otherwise. But apparently, I must of implied it. So I'll spell it out... If an individual finds himself wiped out due to illness, he should definitely go on gov't aid programs. Since that's why they're there.
about a car- um... I live in NYC. I don't need a car. So, I cannot fathom how a car could wipe someone out (in this part of the country). I understand a car accident...but usually car insurance covers that.
"Also, it's next to impossible to find a well-paying job if one has to leave early every Friday to make Shabbos."
I don't know where you live... But I've never heard that it was "next to impossible" to find a job just because someone were shomer shabbos. It is HARDER to find a job, but definitely not "next to impossible". I know many professional Jews, who are very well off, who never had major problems finding work when they needed.

So really, aside from unexpected illness, and maybe an unexpected death of an uninsured family member (breadwinner), or the running out of unemployment and hard to find a job due to bad economy, I cannot comprehend why anyone would need gov't aid.

frumskeptic said...

1- Please get yourself an online ID.
2- "Being distantly aquainted with the kidney salesman it seems that it's a very thin case because he mixed business with volunteers.The profit margin is narrow &overhead for such a venture is very high,tranport housing, clinic without guarantee of a match."
Oh, so you know him, so thats why you're defending him? Or is it that he didn't profit much that makes you defend him? Or is it a tad bit of both?
I think the case is a tad bit more complicated than you're putting it here. After all, the FBI was only investigating all this for 10 years
"And you being a conservative with libertarian sympathies would supposedly promote legalization of kidney sales just as baby surrogacy"
Hmmm... so while I would admit to being a "conservative with libertarian sympathies" I find it interesting how you know exactly which ways I lean my "libertarian sympathies."
I happen to be against organ trafficking. I'm against people profiting (even if a "profit margin is narrow").
But regardless of what my opinion is on the issue, the truth of the matter is that what he did was illegal. Even if I personally saw nothing wrong with it. What this guy did was illegal. Torah does say we have to abide by the law of the nation that houses us.

Katie L. said...

Oh wow....Organ trafficking. I'm not quite quite sure what that really is but I don't think I want to know....

But I definitely agree, education and having a degree makes a world of difference. -Self-Power- is key.

Off the Derech said...

See here.