My convo with an athiest friend of mine. Its not as long as it looks. I am FRUMSKEPTIC (in green), and she is HEATHENSRUS (black). However, these are NOT our real sn's so please dont stalk the poor people who do have these sn's (if they even exist). I'm sorry for the choppy writing, I felt that if i edit the actual wording, I may unintentionally lose the context of some of the points brought about by each of us. So enjoy.
heathensRUS (12:16:09 AM): ok. and this is bad why?
Frumskeptic (12:16:19 AM): political reasons
heathensRUS (12:16:24 AM): ...
Frumskeptic (12:16:42 AM): the other rabbi who runs has an agenda to just pick up and leave, once he has his own following
heathensRUS (12:20:05 AM): umm hmm
heathensRUS (12:20:17 AM): i think this is one of the reasons i dont do religion
Frumskeptic (12:20:17 AM): long story
Frumskeptic (12:20:26 AM): this has nothing to do with religion at all
Frumskeptic (12:20:34 AM): tehre are retards in evry community
heathensRUS (12:20:40 AM): its your rabbi, its tied into religion
Frumskeptic (12:20:41 AM): its called bureacrates
Frumskeptic (12:20:52 AM): it has nothing to do with religion. its political
heathensRUS (12:21:02 AM): once religion becomes this stupid, theres no hope
heathensRUS (12:21:07 AM): and i said only one of the reasons
Frumskeptic (12:21:33 AM): this is normal when a group of ppl with differing opinions are togethr for a cause
heathensRUS (12:22:08 AM): yes its why i think organized religion is the bigger evil
Frumskeptic (12:22:15 AM): nothing at all to do with religion, i do not care about ur other reasons for not being religious, u are entitled to them, but if this is one of them, u are misunderstanding the situation; or just about any organized institutiton. wats it have to do with religion? the entire political system works the exact same way. No one likes it when the president (regardles of what party) does something without listening to congress
heathensRUS (12:23:46 AM): oh, of course
Frumskeptic (12:23:53 AM): if you are pro anarchy, i would see ur point, but to abolish a form of organization cuz of a debate/argument, would be a bit extreme in a society, dont u think? so therefore, alluding this to a religious thing, is wrong. Be an athiest all u like. just dont use this argument for it
heathensRUS (12:24:37 AM): but i personally believe that religion should be independent of politics. like organized religion really sucks, individual faith is okay
Frumskeptic (12:24:43 AM): i 100% agree with u. thats y socially i am a liberatairan. however, if you are religious, u tend to stick to fellow religious ppl. its only natural. cuz u want someone with the same pt of view therefore it is only natural for something to organize on its own, which will only cause debate amongst the ppl/ sometimes good, sometimes bad
heathensRUS (12:27:22 AM): yes but in order to bring those people together, you need an religious institution to which to cling
Frumskeptic (12:28:23 AM): yes. but tahts normal thats like a political institution in whcih to cling. ppl are sociala.if they all agree on a belief, they will start an insitution together, be it a democratic or social institution,or an lets fight cancer institution. but there will be disagreements and politics no matter how good the intentions were, or how nice the ppl were. so nothing to dowith organized religion at al. b/c if it did u gotta abolish ALL institutions
heathensRUS (12:31:16 AM): not if i had my way lol. i realllly dislike religion
Frumskeptic (12:31:28 AM): im curiuos watsur
heathensRUS (12:39:35 AM): no i just dont like religion and would rather there not be any. this is separate from what you're talking about
Frumskeptic (12:40:16 AM): no. ure blaming organized religion for the cause of all evil
basically because of the organizing of it
Frumskeptic (12:40:45 AM): am i right? becuase if im not, i would like to be corrected, so that i can clarify my point
heathensRUS (12:42:41 AM): no not for all evil. i just think religion has caused more damage than good since its conception
Frumskeptic (12:43:09 AM): how so? and since when was it conceptualized?
heathensRUS (12:43:29 AM): im sorry...have you missed the middle east lately? lol
Frumskeptic (12:43:40 AM): thats a power struggle. most israeli's are not religios
heathensRUS (12:43:51 AM): that doesnt matter
Frumskeptic (12:43:55 AM): yea it does. its a power struggle
heathensRUS (12:44:00 AM): no it doesnt
Frumskeptic (12:44:04 AM): yes it does
heathensRUS (12:44:06 AM): religion is used for reasoning
Frumskeptic (12:44:07 AM): if you're not relgious
heathensRUS (12:44:13 AM): and i completely disagree with you
heathensRUS (12:44:20 AM): so i really dont want to go into this
Frumskeptic (12:44:28 AM): lets not talk mideast then
Frumskeptic (12:44:31 AM): cuz thats to sticky
Frumskeptic (12:44:54 AM): when was religion conceptualized and what has it done from the start?
heathensRUS (12:46:32 AM): well i imagine religion was conceptualized with the first people who tried to explain their surroundings. and since its beginning, its alienated and divided people. although im not gonna lie, many earlier pagan religions were a whole lot more peaceful than when judaism began
Frumskeptic (12:47:07 AM): well...how about the first political/class system that conceptualized
Frumskeptic (12:47:11 AM): that alienated ppl
heathensRUS (12:47:15 AM): im not comparing that
heathensRUS (12:47:24 AM): im talking specifically about religion
Frumskeptic (12:47:51 AM): ok... i do not know much about first pagan religions, except that many did sacrifice children/virgins
Frumskeptic (12:47:59 AM): so im not gtonna talk much about them
Frumskeptic (12:48:10 AM): but if you go by the history of judaism it was kinda conceived peacefully
Frumskeptic (12:48:21 AM): looky at the bible, hebrews didnt wanna be slaves
Frumskeptic (12:48:24 AM): they organized
Frumskeptic (12:48:29 AM): moses was leader
Frumskeptic (12:48:31 AM): he got them out
Frumskeptic (12:48:36 AM): tehy started judaism
heathensRUS (12:48:42 AM): oh yes, the jewish god was very peaceful. you know, killing all them infants and all....if thats not peaceful, i dont know what is
Frumskeptic (12:48:59 AM): all infants?
heathensRUS (12:49:53 AM): oh you dont recall what happened during passover?
Frumskeptic (12:51:11 AM): i do. But i see you are conviently forgetting that pharoah passed a law that all jewish boys were to be killed . and the law was very much enforced...hense moses in a basket story
Frumskeptic (12:51:57 AM): and there was no religion till sinai, after they escaped, just a clan of people with common ancestary who happened to be enslaved
heathensRUS (12:53:21 AM): it doesnt matter, tthe pharaoh doing one bastard thing doesnt justify another bastard thing
heathensRUS (12:53:33 AM): and reading the bible only shows what a bastard the jewish god is
Frumskeptic (12:53:44 AM): well..lets not talk about more than one story at once
Frumskeptic (12:53:48 AM): but about pharoah
Frumskeptic (12:53:52 AM): its called self-defense
Frumskeptic (12:53:57 AM): and unlike the pharoah
Frumskeptic (12:54:03 AM): the jews DID warn the egyptians
Frumskeptic (12:54:12 AM): they didnt want to be slaves
heathensRUS (12:54:14 AM): oh yes, that makes it alright
Frumskeptic (12:54:16 AM): they had to do something
Frumskeptic (12:54:33 AM): ok...do u think the Blacks had the right to fight in the North ?
Frumskeptic (12:54:37 AM): or should they have been slaves?
Frumskeptic (12:55:00 AM): just cuz the confedaracy harrassed them, doesnt make it right for them to harrass back
Frumskeptic (12:55:03 AM): interesting concept
heathensRUS (12:55:21 AM): well i suppose then hitler would have been totally justified if he had ONLY WARNED THE JEWS
heathensRUS (12:56:33 AM): also id like to point out we're arguing over different things
Frumskeptic (12:56:35 AM): the situation was a bit different. the jews were not enslaved ingermany
heathensRUS (12:57:28 AM): we're arguing two different things. im not arguing against the jews fighting back, im arguing over that whole god saying "i command all the first born males to be killed thing". cuz i sure as hell know all those babies didnt slight the jews
heathensRUS (12:57:52 AM): basically old testament god is the biggest asshole around
Frumskeptic (12:58:03 AM): ok...he didnt kill babies..lhe killed first borns. meanig, if u were 90 and first born, u die.
Frumskeptic (12:58:12 AM): #2, imagine Gd as the commander in chief
Frumskeptic (12:58:16 AM): not as Gd
Frumskeptic (12:58:20 AM): same difference
heathensRUS (12:58:43 AM): what does that have to do with anything? in this situation hes god. and hes an asshole
Frumskeptic (12:59:01 AM): nothing to do with religion. its self defense, and as a leader Gd felt that this had to be done, since they didnt respond to his other attacks, which were not so harsh
Frumskeptic (12:59:05 AM): its all strategy
Frumskeptic (12:59:10 AM): ofcourse it does have to do withit
heathensRUS (12:59:15 AM): its not self defense, its useless killing
heathensRUS (12:59:29 AM): not to mention
heathensRUS (12:59:44 AM): being god doesnt absolve him from being an asshole
Frumskeptic (1:00:03 AM): ok...remember Heroshima and Nagasaki (excuse the mispelling)...the reason the US did that, was to prevent the war from going on. they warned the Japanese, they tried everything
Frumskeptic (1:00:05 AM): didnt respond
Frumskeptic (1:00:06 AM): its war
Frumskeptic (1:00:09 AM): it had to be done
heathensRUS (1:00:11 AM): if he did the exact same thing as the pharoh, for example, and the pharoh as an asshole, gods an asshole too. being god doesnt save him
Frumskeptic (1:00:35 AM): so wat is gd supposed to do? take away pharoahs free will and abolish him?
Frumskeptic (1:00:37 AM): send him to hell?
Frumskeptic (1:00:44 AM): its still a fre and open society
Frumskeptic (1:00:51 AM): yes..i know this brings us to the Problem of Evil
heathensRUS (1:00:52 AM): well god doesnt really exist so....
Frumskeptic (1:01:37 AM): so then..u should just then use gd as the commander in chief and that hsould make u feel better. its all about logic, u cant take away the free will of ppl
Frumskeptic (1:01:42 AM): it gotta look natural
Frumskeptic (1:01:50 AM): if youdont believe in gd, that is YOUR choice
Frumskeptic (1:01:53 AM): i doNOT care
Frumskeptic (1:01:58 AM): and i have NO agenda towards u
Frumskeptic (1:02:29 AM): but once again..u cannot blame religion, and that is my poioint, to prove to you, it ISNT the religious institution that enslaved the hebrews
Frumskeptic (1:02:50 AM): or the blacks that were enslaved in the south
Frumskeptic (1:02:58 AM): its jackass racist/ethnocentricism
Frumskeptic (1:03:00 AM): that did it
Frumskeptic (1:03:03 AM): NOT religion
heathensRUS (1:04:19 AM): hahah completely disagree with you
Frumskeptic (1:04:28 AM): religion is like the scape goat in your example
heathensRUS (1:04:33 AM): you're right
heathensRUS (1:04:36 AM): i never denied it
heathensRUS (1:04:45 AM): right from the beginning i said i personally dislike religion
heathensRUS (1:04:59 AM): the funny thing is
heathensRUS (1:05:13 AM): its the religious people themselves who use it as a scapegoat as well
Frumskeptic (1:05:19 AM): so then its just an irrational hatred towards religion, so instead of balimg ALL social institutions, and i would agree with you on that
heathensRUS (1:05:22 AM): i suppose that gives me the right to do it too
Frumskeptic (1:05:24 AM): you pick jsut one
heathensRUS (1:05:34 AM): its not irrational at all
Frumskeptic (1:05:39 AM): well...i disagree when relgios ppl do that
Frumskeptic (1:05:44 AM): and i think its wrong
heathensRUS (1:05:45 AM): u can disagree with it
heathensRUS (1:05:50 AM): but many still do it
Frumskeptic (1:05:55 AM): and using ur argument, if one is a bastard,k doesnt give u the right to be a bastard to
Frumskeptic (1:05:59 AM): so y u scapgoating
Frumskeptic (1:06:08 AM): shouldnt u lead by example and not war?
heathensRUS (1:06:31 AM): am i being a bastard? i didnt realize i was
Frumskeptic (1:06:38 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:06:41 AM): im not sayinfg that
Frumskeptic (1:06:43 AM): at all
Frumskeptic (1:06:47 AM): i do not resort to name calling
heathensRUS (1:06:53 AM): however...when i get my hands on nuclear weapons...mwahahahah
Frumskeptic (1:06:54 AM): im resorting tothe example used above
Frumskeptic (1:07:10 AM): u said that gd had no right to retaliate the same way as pharoah
heathensRUS (1:07:17 AM): no thats not what i said
Frumskeptic (1:07:21 AM): and u used "bastard"
Frumskeptic (1:07:23 AM): so its the same thing
Frumskeptic (1:07:32 AM): if jews couldnt kill first born, cuz its bastard like
heathensRUS (1:07:36 AM): i said the old testament god is an asshole and anyone who believes thats a good god is blind
Frumskeptic (1:07:41 AM): than just cuz THEY do it, doesnt give you the right
heathensRUS (1:08:01 AM): the jews could have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:08 AM): b/c he retaliated he's a bastard?
Frumskeptic (1:08:12 AM): how could slaves have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:24 AM): thast like saying without the north the blacks should have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:30 AM): the north is evil
Frumskeptic (1:08:32 AM): i like that
Frumskeptic (1:08:39 AM): interesting perspective
heathensRUS (1:08:45 AM): im just saying the god of the jews is an asshole . idont understand why this is hard for you to understand
Frumskeptic (1:08:52 AM): i do understand it
Frumskeptic (1:08:56 AM): believe wat u want
heathensRUS (1:08:58 AM): you're making irrational comparisons
heathensRUS (1:09:01 AM): you're right, i will
Frumskeptic (1:09:12 AM): i think this particular example is just a bad one to use
heathensRUS (1:10:00 AM): if god is this special being, he should be above the pettiness of humans.
Frumskeptic (1:10:29 AM): ok. so then gd should not interfere?
heathensRUS (1:12:29 AM): hahah he sure didnt with the holocaust
Frumskeptic (1:12:53 AM): well i dunno about that. we were warned in the bible not to assimilate
Frumskeptic (1:12:59 AM): and we were given warning
Frumskeptic (1:13:09 AM): so... he did his part i would say
heathensRUS (1:13:14 AM): hahaha
heathensRUS (1:13:17 AM): so uer funny
heathensRUS (1:13:24 AM): ur so *
Frumskeptic (1:13:30 AM): maybe He decided to be above the human pettiness?
heathensRUS (1:13:45 AM): ull find anything to try to justify this
Frumskeptic (1:13:48 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:14:05 AM): im just saying that its not religion, its social institutions, nothing at all to do with Gd
Frumskeptic (1:14:07 AM): ever
Frumskeptic (1:14:07 AM): ever
heathensRUS (1:14:16 AM): and i disagree
Frumskeptic (1:14:40 AM): but im curious. if you do not beleive in gd, then how could u blame gd for all the bad things ?
heathensRUS (1:15:22 AM): no no
heathensRUS (1:15:27 AM): i blame religion
Frumskeptic (1:16:12 AM): i know.... so tehrefore, you are targetting a SPECIFIC social group of people, who YOU happen to disagree with, because they have a belief in something YOU happen to not agree with.
heathensRUS (1:16:28 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:16:34 AM): so, war is NOT bad because of religion, but because of the loonies who use religion as an excuse to go to war
heathensRUS (1:16:37 AM): not a specific group of people
Frumskeptic (1:16:53 AM): yes, ppl who believe in gd
Frumskeptic (1:17:05 AM): and organize themselves wiht fellow ppl to worship together
Frumskeptic (1:17:22 AM): and use their beliefs to bomb ppl to spread their religion
heathensRUS (1:17:27 AM): but this group of people is so vast it could hardly be called a group, and more like the majority of humans
Frumskeptic (1:17:56 AM): ok. so then u just hate ppl
heathensRUS (1:18:02 AM): im secretly a misanthrope at heart
Frumskeptic (1:18:05 AM): me 2
Frumskeptic (1:18:08 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:18:12 AM): hahaha
Frumskeptic (1:18:18 AM): i also hate ppl that use relgion as an excuse to bomb ppl
Frumskeptic (1:18:29 AM): i dont think im evil
heathensRUS (1:18:34 AM): ooo i hate them too
Frumskeptic (1:18:41 AM): i think alot of wats going on in the mideast is over the top
heathensRUS (1:18:51 AM): but see th difference between me and you
Frumskeptic (1:18:57 AM): but mideast is sticky so i cannot talk about that with u
Frumskeptic (1:19:01 AM): to long and complex
heathensRUS (1:19:09 AM): the difference between me and you
Frumskeptic (1:19:13 AM): ...
Frumskeptic (1:19:34 AM): is that you blame specific ppl, while i dont?
heathensRUS (1:19:35 AM): is that you still find religion good, while i think if there wasnt any religion there'd be one last thing to use as an excuse for horrible things
heathensRUS (1:19:42 AM): less*
Frumskeptic (1:19:43 AM): i thiink religion is a tool
Frumskeptic (1:19:47 AM): u can do watever u choose with it
Frumskeptic (1:19:51 AM): it is a TOOl
Frumskeptic (1:19:57 AM): wat u do with it , is wat u make it
heathensRUS (1:20:02 AM): its a tool used as a means
Frumskeptic (1:20:10 AM): right. i use it as good
heathensRUS (1:20:22 AM): well we might disagree here lol
Frumskeptic (1:20:31 AM): wel...im not forcingt anyone to be religios
Frumskeptic (1:20:41 AM): so unless i am killing or s/t it cannot possibly be "bad"
Frumskeptic (1:20:47 AM): so therefor u have NO idea how i use it
Frumskeptic (1:20:53 AM): so u technically cannot judge me
heathensRUS (1:21:01 AM): well one might argue believing in such crap is detrimental to humanity in and of itself lol
heathensRUS (1:21:07 AM): of course IM not arguing that
Frumskeptic (1:21:17 AM): yea u are
Frumskeptic (1:21:19 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:21:21 AM): lol nahhhh
heathensRUS (1:21:26 AM): i just like screwing with you
Frumskeptic (1:21:34 AM): and just me, and majority of ppl i know, who became religios
Frumskeptic (1:21:39 AM): realy do question EERYTHING
Frumskeptic (1:21:42 AM): so w/e tehy do beleive
Frumskeptic (1:21:47 AM): they still bring science into the world
Frumskeptic (1:21:54 AM): they do not want to stop the progress of science
Frumskeptic (1:22:06 AM): or any sort of progress, be it social or mathematical
Frumskeptic (1:22:31 AM): so just cuz we happen to take a day off on saturday and not eat everything on the menu, we are basically like allergic lazy pplk who need a day off
heathensRUS (1:22:31 AM): well thank goodness for you people
Frumskeptic (1:22:46 AM): are u being sarcastic?
heathensRUS (1:22:52 AM): not at all actually
Frumskeptic (1:22:54 AM): so u see
Frumskeptic (1:22:58 AM): u cant say im BAD
heathensRUS (1:22:58 AM): its too bad more people cant be like you
Frumskeptic (1:23:19 AM): cuz i 100% agree with u that alot of loonies in those stupid hats and furry things are messed up
heathensRUS (1:23:26 AM): lol btw
Frumskeptic (1:23:28 AM): but unfortunatelly most ppl are stupid
heathensRUS (1:23:34 AM): its so funny what u said
heathensRUS (1:23:41 AM): being jewish is like being an allergic lazy person
heathensRUS (1:23:47 AM): hahahah
Frumskeptic (1:23:53 AM): well..how else do i desbribe it?
Frumskeptic (1:23:53 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:24:04 AM): can you said it again, so i can facebook you
Frumskeptic (1:24:07 AM): an allergic lazy person isnt hurting anyone
Frumskeptic (1:24:08 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:24:28 AM): AHA
heathensRUS (1:24:33 AM): A LAZY PERSON HURTS THE ECONOMY LOL
Frumskeptic (1:25:02 AM): a Jew is like being an allergic lazy person who needs a day off on saturday
Frumskeptic (1:25:21 AM): well no...cuz ppl who work crazy hours get burned out
Frumskeptic (1:25:25 AM): and they need to go on vacation
Frumskeptic (1:25:39 AM): so instead of going on vacation..since we're cheap, we juwst take a day off on saturday
heathensRUS (1:26:17 AM): lol way to perpetuate the stereotype
Frumskeptic (1:26:25 AM): i knew ud like it
Frumskeptic (1:26:39 AM): but u are amused!!
Frumskeptic (1:26:47 AM): so therfore i accomplished my task
Frumskeptic (12:07:52 AM): i started a war
Frumskeptic (12:07:56 AM): im so proud of mysefl
heathensRUS (12:10:14 AM): um thats nice, more death
Frumskeptic (12:10:41 AM): no, not like that. s/t giong on in our shul. and so im so anti it. and i went to a speech sunday, adn the rabbi there was talking abot s/t and i used wats going on at my shul as an example. and he was like " o man, the program is doomed"
Frumskeptic (12:11:36 AM): i was like "im so having my rabbi call you"
Frumskeptic (12:11:44 AM): ad we went into this whole long discussion
Frumskeptic (12:12:27 AM): then i told my rabbi. he told me to give the other rabbis number today. so b4 i even gave him the # i obv told him the name of hte Rabbi, and he was like "I know him real well" and by the way my rabbi was talking; he obv didnt like the other rabbi very much
Frumskeptic (12:13:34 AM): so i for sure opened doors to s/t i bet he thinks i shouldnt have. I;m totally proud of myself tho, that i was lucky enough to have this fall into my lap
heathensRUS (12:15:03 AM): whats the argument about
Frumskeptic (12:15:23 AM): they started a second minyan. no one in shul likes the idea. the rabbi convinced presidents
heathensRUS (12:15:49 AM): im sorry, could you speak english
Frumskeptic (12:15:52 AM): and tehy completely bypassed the voting and just allowed hte program
heathensRUS (12:16:09 AM): ok. and this is bad why?
Frumskeptic (12:16:19 AM): political reasons
heathensRUS (12:16:24 AM): ...
Frumskeptic (12:16:42 AM): the other rabbi who runs has an agenda to just pick up and leave, once he has his own following
heathensRUS (12:20:05 AM): umm hmm
heathensRUS (12:20:17 AM): i think this is one of the reasons i dont do religion
Frumskeptic (12:20:17 AM): long story
Frumskeptic (12:20:26 AM): this has nothing to do with religion at all
Frumskeptic (12:20:34 AM): tehre are retards in evry community
heathensRUS (12:20:40 AM): its your rabbi, its tied into religion
Frumskeptic (12:20:41 AM): its called bureacrates
Frumskeptic (12:20:52 AM): it has nothing to do with religion. its political
heathensRUS (12:21:02 AM): once religion becomes this stupid, theres no hope
heathensRUS (12:21:07 AM): and i said only one of the reasons
Frumskeptic (12:21:33 AM): this is normal when a group of ppl with differing opinions are togethr for a cause
heathensRUS (12:22:08 AM): yes its why i think organized religion is the bigger evil
Frumskeptic (12:22:15 AM): nothing at all to do with religion, i do not care about ur other reasons for not being religious, u are entitled to them, but if this is one of them, u are misunderstanding the situation; or just about any organized institutiton. wats it have to do with religion? the entire political system works the exact same way. No one likes it when the president (regardles of what party) does something without listening to congress
heathensRUS (12:23:46 AM): oh, of course
Frumskeptic (12:23:53 AM): if you are pro anarchy, i would see ur point, but to abolish a form of organization cuz of a debate/argument, would be a bit extreme in a society, dont u think? so therefore, alluding this to a religious thing, is wrong. Be an athiest all u like. just dont use this argument for it
heathensRUS (12:24:37 AM): but i personally believe that religion should be independent of politics. like organized religion really sucks, individual faith is okay
Frumskeptic (12:24:43 AM): i 100% agree with u. thats y socially i am a liberatairan. however, if you are religious, u tend to stick to fellow religious ppl. its only natural. cuz u want someone with the same pt of view therefore it is only natural for something to organize on its own, which will only cause debate amongst the ppl/ sometimes good, sometimes bad
heathensRUS (12:27:22 AM): yes but in order to bring those people together, you need an religious institution to which to cling
Frumskeptic (12:28:23 AM): yes. but tahts normal thats like a political institution in whcih to cling. ppl are sociala.if they all agree on a belief, they will start an insitution together, be it a democratic or social institution,or an lets fight cancer institution. but there will be disagreements and politics no matter how good the intentions were, or how nice the ppl were. so nothing to dowith organized religion at al. b/c if it did u gotta abolish ALL institutions
heathensRUS (12:31:16 AM): not if i had my way lol. i realllly dislike religion
Frumskeptic (12:31:28 AM): im curiuos wats
heathensRUS (12:39:35 AM): no i just dont like religion and would rather there not be any. this is separate from what you're talking about
Frumskeptic (12:40:16 AM): no. ure blaming organized religion for the cause of all evil
basically because of the organizing of it
Frumskeptic (12:40:45 AM): am i right? becuase if im not, i would like to be corrected, so that i can clarify my point
heathensRUS (12:42:41 AM): no not for all evil. i just think religion has caused more damage than good since its conception
Frumskeptic (12:43:09 AM): how so? and since when was it conceptualized?
heathensRUS (12:43:29 AM): im sorry...have you missed the middle east lately? lol
Frumskeptic (12:43:40 AM): thats a power struggle. most israeli's are not religios
heathensRUS (12:43:51 AM): that doesnt matter
Frumskeptic (12:43:55 AM): yea it does. its a power struggle
heathensRUS (12:44:00 AM): no it doesnt
Frumskeptic (12:44:04 AM): yes it does
heathensRUS (12:44:06 AM): religion is used for reasoning
Frumskeptic (12:44:07 AM): if you're not relgious
heathensRUS (12:44:13 AM): and i completely disagree with you
heathensRUS (12:44:20 AM): so i really dont want to go into this
Frumskeptic (12:44:28 AM): lets not talk mideast then
Frumskeptic (12:44:31 AM): cuz thats to sticky
Frumskeptic (12:44:54 AM): when was religion conceptualized and what has it done from the start?
heathensRUS (12:46:32 AM): well i imagine religion was conceptualized with the first people who tried to explain their surroundings. and since its beginning, its alienated and divided people. although im not gonna lie, many earlier pagan religions were a whole lot more peaceful than when judaism began
Frumskeptic (12:47:07 AM): well...how about the first political/class system that conceptualized
Frumskeptic (12:47:11 AM): that alienated ppl
heathensRUS (12:47:15 AM): im not comparing that
heathensRUS (12:47:24 AM): im talking specifically about religion
Frumskeptic (12:47:51 AM): ok... i do not know much about first pagan religions, except that many did sacrifice children/virgins
Frumskeptic (12:47:59 AM): so im not gtonna talk much about them
Frumskeptic (12:48:10 AM): but if you go by the history of judaism it was kinda conceived peacefully
Frumskeptic (12:48:21 AM): looky at the bible, hebrews didnt wanna be slaves
Frumskeptic (12:48:24 AM): they organized
Frumskeptic (12:48:29 AM): moses was leader
Frumskeptic (12:48:31 AM): he got them out
Frumskeptic (12:48:36 AM): tehy started judaism
heathensRUS (12:48:42 AM): oh yes, the jewish god was very peaceful. you know, killing all them infants and all....if thats not peaceful, i dont know what is
Frumskeptic (12:48:59 AM): all infants?
heathensRUS (12:49:53 AM): oh you dont recall what happened during passover?
Frumskeptic (12:51:11 AM): i do. But i see you are conviently forgetting that pharoah passed a law that all jewish boys were to be killed . and the law was very much enforced...hense moses in a basket story
Frumskeptic (12:51:57 AM): and there was no religion till sinai, after they escaped, just a clan of people with common ancestary who happened to be enslaved
heathensRUS (12:53:21 AM): it doesnt matter, tthe pharaoh doing one bastard thing doesnt justify another bastard thing
heathensRUS (12:53:33 AM): and reading the bible only shows what a bastard the jewish god is
Frumskeptic (12:53:44 AM): well..lets not talk about more than one story at once
Frumskeptic (12:53:48 AM): but about pharoah
Frumskeptic (12:53:52 AM): its called self-defense
Frumskeptic (12:53:57 AM): and unlike the pharoah
Frumskeptic (12:54:03 AM): the jews DID warn the egyptians
Frumskeptic (12:54:12 AM): they didnt want to be slaves
heathensRUS (12:54:14 AM): oh yes, that makes it alright
Frumskeptic (12:54:16 AM): they had to do something
Frumskeptic (12:54:33 AM): ok...do u think the Blacks had the right to fight in the North ?
Frumskeptic (12:54:37 AM): or should they have been slaves?
Frumskeptic (12:55:00 AM): just cuz the confedaracy harrassed them, doesnt make it right for them to harrass back
Frumskeptic (12:55:03 AM): interesting concept
heathensRUS (12:55:21 AM): well i suppose then hitler would have been totally justified if he had ONLY WARNED THE JEWS
heathensRUS (12:56:33 AM): also id like to point out we're arguing over different things
Frumskeptic (12:56:35 AM): the situation was a bit different. the jews were not enslaved in
heathensRUS (12:57:28 AM): we're arguing two different things. im not arguing against the jews fighting back, im arguing over that whole god saying "i command all the first born males to be killed thing". cuz i sure as hell know all those babies didnt slight the jews
heathensRUS (12:57:52 AM): basically old testament god is the biggest asshole around
Frumskeptic (12:58:03 AM): ok...he didnt kill babies..lhe killed first borns. meanig, if u were 90 and first born, u die.
Frumskeptic (12:58:12 AM): #2, imagine Gd as the commander in chief
Frumskeptic (12:58:16 AM): not as Gd
Frumskeptic (12:58:20 AM): same difference
heathensRUS (12:58:43 AM): what does that have to do with anything? in this situation hes god. and hes an asshole
Frumskeptic (12:59:01 AM): nothing to do with religion. its self defense, and as a leader Gd felt that this had to be done, since they didnt respond to his other attacks, which were not so harsh
Frumskeptic (12:59:05 AM): its all strategy
Frumskeptic (12:59:10 AM): ofcourse it does have to do withit
heathensRUS (12:59:15 AM): its not self defense, its useless killing
heathensRUS (12:59:29 AM): not to mention
heathensRUS (12:59:44 AM): being god doesnt absolve him from being an asshole
Frumskeptic (1:00:03 AM): ok...remember Heroshima and Nagasaki (excuse the mispelling)...the reason the US did that, was to prevent the war from going on. they warned the Japanese, they tried everything
Frumskeptic (1:00:05 AM): didnt respond
Frumskeptic (1:00:06 AM): its war
Frumskeptic (1:00:09 AM): it had to be done
heathensRUS (1:00:11 AM): if he did the exact same thing as the pharoh, for example, and the pharoh as an asshole, gods an asshole too. being god doesnt save him
Frumskeptic (1:00:35 AM): so wat is gd supposed to do? take away pharoahs free will and abolish him?
Frumskeptic (1:00:37 AM): send him to hell?
Frumskeptic (1:00:44 AM): its still a fre and open society
Frumskeptic (1:00:51 AM): yes..i know this brings us to the Problem of Evil
heathensRUS (1:00:52 AM): well god doesnt really exist so....
Frumskeptic (1:01:37 AM): so then..u should just then use gd as the commander in chief and that hsould make u feel better. its all about logic, u cant take away the free will of ppl
Frumskeptic (1:01:42 AM): it gotta look natural
Frumskeptic (1:01:50 AM): if youdont believe in gd, that is YOUR choice
Frumskeptic (1:01:53 AM): i doNOT care
Frumskeptic (1:01:58 AM): and i have NO agenda towards u
Frumskeptic (1:02:29 AM): but once again..u cannot blame religion, and that is my poioint, to prove to you, it ISNT the religious institution that enslaved the hebrews
Frumskeptic (1:02:50 AM): or the blacks that were enslaved in the south
Frumskeptic (1:02:58 AM): its jackass racist/ethnocentricism
Frumskeptic (1:03:00 AM): that did it
Frumskeptic (1:03:03 AM): NOT religion
heathensRUS (1:04:19 AM): hahah completely disagree with you
Frumskeptic (1:04:28 AM): religion is like the scape goat in your example
heathensRUS (1:04:33 AM): you're right
heathensRUS (1:04:36 AM): i never denied it
heathensRUS (1:04:45 AM): right from the beginning i said i personally dislike religion
heathensRUS (1:04:59 AM): the funny thing is
heathensRUS (1:05:13 AM): its the religious people themselves who use it as a scapegoat as well
Frumskeptic (1:05:19 AM): so then its just an irrational hatred towards religion, so instead of balimg ALL social institutions, and i would agree with you on that
heathensRUS (1:05:22 AM): i suppose that gives me the right to do it too
Frumskeptic (1:05:24 AM): you pick jsut one
heathensRUS (1:05:34 AM): its not irrational at all
Frumskeptic (1:05:39 AM): well...i disagree when relgios ppl do that
Frumskeptic (1:05:44 AM): and i think its wrong
heathensRUS (1:05:45 AM): u can disagree with it
heathensRUS (1:05:50 AM): but many still do it
Frumskeptic (1:05:55 AM): and using ur argument, if one is a bastard,k doesnt give u the right to be a bastard to
Frumskeptic (1:05:59 AM): so y u scapgoating
Frumskeptic (1:06:08 AM): shouldnt u lead by example and not war?
heathensRUS (1:06:31 AM): am i being a bastard? i didnt realize i was
Frumskeptic (1:06:38 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:06:41 AM): im not sayinfg that
Frumskeptic (1:06:43 AM): at all
Frumskeptic (1:06:47 AM): i do not resort to name calling
heathensRUS (1:06:53 AM): however...when i get my hands on nuclear weapons...mwahahahah
Frumskeptic (1:06:54 AM): im resorting tothe example used above
Frumskeptic (1:07:10 AM): u said that gd had no right to retaliate the same way as pharoah
heathensRUS (1:07:17 AM): no thats not what i said
Frumskeptic (1:07:21 AM): and u used "bastard"
Frumskeptic (1:07:23 AM): so its the same thing
Frumskeptic (1:07:32 AM): if jews couldnt kill first born, cuz its bastard like
heathensRUS (1:07:36 AM): i said the old testament god is an asshole and anyone who believes thats a good god is blind
Frumskeptic (1:07:41 AM): than just cuz THEY do it, doesnt give you the right
heathensRUS (1:08:01 AM): the jews could have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:08 AM): b/c he retaliated he's a bastard?
Frumskeptic (1:08:12 AM): how could slaves have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:24 AM): thast like saying without the north the blacks should have done it
Frumskeptic (1:08:30 AM): the north is evil
Frumskeptic (1:08:32 AM): i like that
Frumskeptic (1:08:39 AM): interesting perspective
heathensRUS (1:08:45 AM): im just saying the god of the jews is an asshole . idont understand why this is hard for you to understand
Frumskeptic (1:08:52 AM): i do understand it
Frumskeptic (1:08:56 AM): believe wat u want
heathensRUS (1:08:58 AM): you're making irrational comparisons
heathensRUS (1:09:01 AM): you're right, i will
Frumskeptic (1:09:12 AM): i think this particular example is just a bad one to use
heathensRUS (1:10:00 AM): if god is this special being, he should be above the pettiness of humans.
Frumskeptic (1:10:29 AM): ok. so then gd should not interfere?
heathensRUS (1:12:29 AM): hahah he sure didnt with the holocaust
Frumskeptic (1:12:53 AM): well i dunno about that. we were warned in the bible not to assimilate
Frumskeptic (1:12:59 AM): and we were given warning
Frumskeptic (1:13:09 AM): so... he did his part i would say
heathensRUS (1:13:14 AM): hahaha
heathensRUS (1:13:17 AM): so uer funny
heathensRUS (1:13:24 AM): ur so *
Frumskeptic (1:13:30 AM): maybe He decided to be above the human pettiness?
heathensRUS (1:13:45 AM): ull find anything to try to justify this
Frumskeptic (1:13:48 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:14:05 AM): im just saying that its not religion, its social institutions, nothing at all to do with Gd
Frumskeptic (1:14:07 AM): ever
Frumskeptic (1:14:07 AM): ever
heathensRUS (1:14:16 AM): and i disagree
Frumskeptic (1:14:40 AM): but im curious. if you do not beleive in gd, then how could u blame gd for all the bad things ?
heathensRUS (1:15:22 AM): no no
heathensRUS (1:15:27 AM): i blame religion
Frumskeptic (1:16:12 AM): i know.... so tehrefore, you are targetting a SPECIFIC social group of people, who YOU happen to disagree with, because they have a belief in something YOU happen to not agree with.
heathensRUS (1:16:28 AM): no
Frumskeptic (1:16:34 AM): so, war is NOT bad because of religion, but because of the loonies who use religion as an excuse to go to war
heathensRUS (1:16:37 AM): not a specific group of people
Frumskeptic (1:16:53 AM): yes, ppl who believe in gd
Frumskeptic (1:17:05 AM): and organize themselves wiht fellow ppl to worship together
Frumskeptic (1:17:22 AM): and use their beliefs to bomb ppl to spread their religion
heathensRUS (1:17:27 AM): but this group of people is so vast it could hardly be called a group, and more like the majority of humans
Frumskeptic (1:17:56 AM): ok. so then u just hate ppl
heathensRUS (1:18:02 AM): im secretly a misanthrope at heart
Frumskeptic (1:18:05 AM): me 2
Frumskeptic (1:18:08 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:18:12 AM): hahaha
Frumskeptic (1:18:18 AM): i also hate ppl that use relgion as an excuse to bomb ppl
Frumskeptic (1:18:29 AM): i dont think im evil
heathensRUS (1:18:34 AM): ooo i hate them too
Frumskeptic (1:18:41 AM): i think alot of wats going on in the mideast is over the top
heathensRUS (1:18:51 AM): but see th difference between me and you
Frumskeptic (1:18:57 AM): but mideast is sticky so i cannot talk about that with u
Frumskeptic (1:19:01 AM): to long and complex
heathensRUS (1:19:09 AM): the difference between me and you
Frumskeptic (1:19:13 AM): ...
Frumskeptic (1:19:34 AM): is that you blame specific ppl, while i dont?
heathensRUS (1:19:35 AM): is that you still find religion good, while i think if there wasnt any religion there'd be one last thing to use as an excuse for horrible things
heathensRUS (1:19:42 AM): less*
Frumskeptic (1:19:43 AM): i thiink religion is a tool
Frumskeptic (1:19:47 AM): u can do watever u choose with it
Frumskeptic (1:19:51 AM): it is a TOOl
Frumskeptic (1:19:57 AM): wat u do with it , is wat u make it
heathensRUS (1:20:02 AM): its a tool used as a means
Frumskeptic (1:20:10 AM): right. i use it as good
heathensRUS (1:20:22 AM): well we might disagree here lol
Frumskeptic (1:20:31 AM): wel...im not forcingt anyone to be religios
Frumskeptic (1:20:41 AM): so unless i am killing or s/t it cannot possibly be "bad"
Frumskeptic (1:20:47 AM): so therefor u have NO idea how i use it
Frumskeptic (1:20:53 AM): so u technically cannot judge me
heathensRUS (1:21:01 AM): well one might argue believing in such crap is detrimental to humanity in and of itself lol
heathensRUS (1:21:07 AM): of course IM not arguing that
Frumskeptic (1:21:17 AM): yea u are
Frumskeptic (1:21:19 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:21:21 AM): lol nahhhh
heathensRUS (1:21:26 AM): i just like screwing with you
Frumskeptic (1:21:34 AM): and just me, and majority of ppl i know, who became religios
Frumskeptic (1:21:39 AM): realy do question EERYTHING
Frumskeptic (1:21:42 AM): so w/e tehy do beleive
Frumskeptic (1:21:47 AM): they still bring science into the world
Frumskeptic (1:21:54 AM): they do not want to stop the progress of science
Frumskeptic (1:22:06 AM): or any sort of progress, be it social or mathematical
Frumskeptic (1:22:31 AM): so just cuz we happen to take a day off on saturday and not eat everything on the menu, we are basically like allergic lazy pplk who need a day off
heathensRUS (1:22:31 AM): well thank goodness for you people
Frumskeptic (1:22:46 AM): are u being sarcastic?
heathensRUS (1:22:52 AM): not at all actually
Frumskeptic (1:22:54 AM): so u see
Frumskeptic (1:22:58 AM): u cant say im BAD
heathensRUS (1:22:58 AM): its too bad more people cant be like you
Frumskeptic (1:23:19 AM): cuz i 100% agree with u that alot of loonies in those stupid hats and furry things are messed up
heathensRUS (1:23:26 AM): lol btw
Frumskeptic (1:23:28 AM): but unfortunatelly most ppl are stupid
heathensRUS (1:23:34 AM): its so funny what u said
heathensRUS (1:23:41 AM): being jewish is like being an allergic lazy person
heathensRUS (1:23:47 AM): hahahah
Frumskeptic (1:23:53 AM): well..how else do i desbribe it?
Frumskeptic (1:23:53 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:24:04 AM): can you said it again, so i can facebook you
Frumskeptic (1:24:07 AM): an allergic lazy person isnt hurting anyone
Frumskeptic (1:24:08 AM): lol
heathensRUS (1:24:28 AM): AHA
heathensRUS (1:24:33 AM): A LAZY PERSON HURTS THE ECONOMY LOL
Frumskeptic (1:25:02 AM): a Jew is like being an allergic lazy person who needs a day off on saturday
Frumskeptic (1:25:21 AM): well no...cuz ppl who work crazy hours get burned out
Frumskeptic (1:25:25 AM): and they need to go on vacation
Frumskeptic (1:25:39 AM): so instead of going on vacation..since we're cheap, we juwst take a day off on saturday
heathensRUS (1:26:17 AM): lol way to perpetuate the stereotype
Frumskeptic (1:26:25 AM): i knew ud like it
Frumskeptic (1:26:39 AM): but u are amused!!
Frumskeptic (1:26:47 AM): so therfore i accomplished my task
15 comments:
unfortunately i couldnt read the whole thing...timing issues, but i was actually gonna write about how i had a conv. with my friend yesterday, and she totally gave me some funny amunition with a crazy chumra she is interested in keeping. And well, I told her that I have a friend who blogs and is anti-crazy chumras, so i was gonna tell you about it. My friend responded that blogging about this is a chillul Hashem, and after thinking about it - I agree. So I was gonna write that your posts are a chillul Hashem, well some of them anyway, and that though they are amusing and funny, I will read them (my yetzer hara) and all the meanwhile, pray for your soul. ( :) ). Anyhow, the first part of your discussion with your friend is a major chillul Hashem for you to blog about. The second part about religion being evil; people are evil, not religion. In world war 2 you had suicidal kamikaze pilots who blew themselves into ships, and that had nothing to do with religion. War is war, evil is evil. Ugh gotta go work, bye :)
FS,
I don't get it - what are you demonstrating here?
anonymous: how could s/t be a chilul hashem if nobody but frum jews would understand anything I'm writing, or Jews who were frum, and the stuff I write is beyond them.
ortho: no point. had a long convo with her, felt it would go to waste if i couldnt entertain ppl bored at work with it
anonymous: How is it a Chillul Hashem to voice my disgust at the opinionated Rabbi for started a second minyan?
Thats like saying the Yated is a chillul hashem because they write about how they're fed up with frum mothers who leave their kids in supermarkets unnattended. It's whats going on in the community, if we sit down and shut up because we fear the goyim may come and kill us, then we'd just die from combustion, because how long can a Jew really shut up for?
Free speech/critisizm = voice of G-d.
Repression of ideas- open influence of the Catholic Church.
Holy crap. Neither you or your friend are capable of staying on subject. You bob from topic to topic without ever resolving anything.
Frumskeptic...i liked what you guys were arguing, but i got to ask you...what was the end result???
You see, I'd like to believe that we actually AGREED that it wasn't organized religion that was bad, but stupid people. But I'm not so sure I'm not going to get into another argument with her in a few months about the same conversation again.
you know sometimes the people you argue with really trully deep down inside agree with you, but it takes time for them to see the truth...They need to experience it on their own to finally see what you see!!!
with the girl that you were talking to i kind of got the vibe that she was, at the end of the day, not going to change her mind. she believes in what she believes in and that is it... and plus to believe that there is a g-d you have to be the kind of person that is ready to take on some responsibilities...no matter what faith you have...she obviously doesn't care at all about anything...and to say that she is an athiest is just a cover up...
im not saying she is a bad person...but she probably had problems growing up, and better to blame than g-d Himself...
and who better to blame than g-d Himself*
Anonymous: Oh boy did she have problems growing up!! You are right on the money.
And you are 100% right, she doesn't care to listen to me, and her mind was made up, and even if scientific evidence was out there to prove Gd or anything, she would find a way to not listen. But then again, why shouldn't one question "evidence"?
but anyways, She is definitly using "athiesm" as a cover, Even in the convo, she kept mentioning Gd, while I kept on trying to avoid it, and stick to "organized religion". So, good call :)
lol...i was kinda hoping i would be wrong...i dunno to me its always sad when these things happen...what evidence do you need that g-d exists...u must be really really blind not to see he exists...or even feel that he is around...
Maybe it is wrong for me to say this but i always thought that it is the self involved people who are athiests...just look at the way they carry themselves as if they are "g-ds"...its wierd they don't believe in him and yet they themselves want to rule the world...lol
Hilliul hashem is not for only goyem its for Jews as well.do more reseach on the subject of hillul hashem.
in addtion, by u telling this atheist girl about the problems in u're shul/bashing sown the Rabbi, is a major hillul hashem. theres one thing if u tell it to a friend who knows where u're coming from, but u went and told an atheist.
Anon: "by u telling this atheist girl about the problems in u're shul/bashing sown the Rabbi, is a major hillul hashem"
you mean, Jews aren't REGULAR people, and if they have problems,similar to those of regular people, then they should pretend they don't.
Got it!
but really. Why should I spend my entire life fearing that they'll hate us? they already do. who cares. As long as I'm not doing anything drastic, like swindling funds, or killing, or molesting young children, or embezzelment, why should I have this constant fear of every action. I don't care.
and about Jews/Jews chillul Hashem, I don't buy it. If anything, blogs like these make me feel prouder of being frum, cuz until I entered cyberspace I thought all frum people were close minded like those at my HS. I actually like blogs on which they can take the flaws of the community and feel confident enough to either poke fun at them, or just start discussions on how to resolve them (and those discussions, often times, start of as rants). Make's me feel like a normal thinking person. Thank gd for Jews that constantly perform "chillul hashems" you keep me ON the derech!
Here's the difference between a religious individual and a nonreligious atheist (there are religious atheists, btw, some forms of Buddhism and an insignificantly small form of Hinduism): A religious individual will argue with examples and placing things into perspective. An atheist usually will not, aside from strawman arguments and comparisons to mythological beasts and creations such as Santa Clause and Unicorns). It happens, and all you can do is laugh at them. Not in a rude way, but more like "heh, they say they get it... but they don't..." It's like the convo you have here. There's a lot more to Biblical arguments than just "well, he killed some people, therefor he's a bastard." There's philosophical arguments of a more higher degree and theology to consider. I'm not Jewish, so I can't really give you any pointers, but that's just my two cents.
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