Wednesday, September 30, 2009

He's gonna *make* you

This one guy at shul keeps on bothering my father. He keeps telling him that my fiance only says he won't make me cover my hair, but a few months into marriage, he'll make me!

I also have this friend, who is currently seeing a guy, who is slightly (literally, slightly) more religious than she is. Her family is freaking out (they don't like him because she's sephardi/he's ashkanazie), so they keep telling her that he'll *make* her cover her hair; he's only saying now that he doesn't care, because he just wants to get married [if he's that desperate, he needs a shrink, not a wife with a sheital].

Normally, I ignore people who are stupid, but in this case, since my friend is being bombarded with the same retardedness as my father is, I'm going to just write a ranting post about it.

Firstly (and I said this to my friend when she was complaining to me), I'd like to know how any man- even woman for that matter- could *make* someone cover their hair? Is there a crazy glue gemach that works with the sheital gemach... together with the consent of the husband, they raid the house in the middle of the night and crazy glue a sheital onto a woman's head?

Secondly, I don't know what goes on on shidduch dates, but my fiance and I (and my friend and the guy she's seeing) DISCUSSED hair covering. If he lied to me about where he stands on this issue to the extent that he'll *make* me cover my hair a few months into the marriage, what else is he lying about? I'll have bigger issues to worry about than whether or not my head is covered with a shmata or a bit of 3rd world hair!

Thirdly...well...I don't have a thirdly.. People are just stupid.
Does anyone know how someone can *make* a woman cover her hair?


Jessica said...

I think what these people are forgetting is that the woman has a lot more power in the marriage than the man. I'm sure you've heard the quote that goes something like "the man is the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way they like." If anyone is going to "make" anyone do anything, it will be you "making" him do something.... though it won't be in the conventional sense of forcing someone to do something.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

It says in the first mishna of the second chapter of ketubot that if your wife refuses to cover her hair you should divorce her...

frumskeptic said...

shlomo- after DISCUSSING with his fiance that hair covering is not necessary, if a guy suddenly decides its necessary, he has bigger issues facing him than divorce.

now, about "halacha"...
i find what you mention quite untrue, considering hair covering at most, can be given a status of a machlokes. Any source that is derived into hair covering was always discussed at times when it was a given that *all* women, married and not, covered their hair... especially when living in desert times (when it was more sanitary that way, as well as more practical with the sun and all), and amongst christians, when christain women cover their heads to enter a church.

Any source, specifically Isha'sSotah is very very easily rebuttled from actual halacha to minhag in terms of hair covering.

So your claim is a mere scare tactic for men to have control of their women.

frum single female said...

somehow when i saw the title for this post i immedieatly thought of hair covering...
its difficult to make someone cover their hair. so long as a couple discusses this before marriage then i dont think that it should be an issue. actually ive met guys who feel its up to the woman what she does which i agree with. she's the one doing it.(or not).

lvnsm said...

If he really means that he doesn't mind either way, then hopefully he's not going to say on second thought...

However, something could come up along the way that might persuade him otherwise, but if that happens, then hopefully he would talk to you about it.
That might work better anyway instead of 'making' a person do it.

Anonymous said...

So how does this guy at shul know more about your fiance than you do? And why is he so invested in whether your fiance is going to make you wear a sheitel?

Ichabod Chrain

frumskeptic said...

IC- I dunno... maybe he was a jerk and *made* his wife cover her hair and thinks all guys are deceitful...until the chupa...

Moshe said...

How to make a woman wear a sheitel? Simple! Shave her head while she's asleep!

kisarita said...

He's going to make you- sounds like they're suggesting he's going to be physically abusive. Do they know what they sound like???? I'm not sure I wanna know what goes on in their marriages....

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

FS: It seems I've never actually responded to this, though it's worthy of response..

“After discussing with his fiancé that hair covering is not necessary, if a guy suddenly decides its necessary, he has bigger issues facing him than divorce”- all likeliness is that the mishna wasn’t discussing a guy who agreed with his fiancé before marriage that she shouldn’t wear a head covering. In your own husbands case, yes, that would be unusual unless he suddenly had a huge change of heart about the matter.

“Hair covering at most, can be given a status of a machlokes”- in rabbinic terms, something mentioned in the mishna without argument is in no way a “machloket”. I mean, machloket is relative to what you’re discussing, but as far as the talmud is concerned the mishna is the earliest source.

“any source that is derived into hair covering was always discussed at times when it was a given that *all* women, married and not, covered their hair”- I’m not sure if you realize it, but this is the only relevant point you mention. Not a exactly a halachic point, but a legitimate idea espoused y the founders of the conservative movement (i.e. that norms have changed since then) but either way, such interpretations are not consistent with “acceptable halachic norms” (not that that represents a fallacy in their ideology).

“especially when living in desert times”- “desert times”? You serious? While the torah may have been given in an arid locale, it’s laws have been kept in all climates..

“Any source, specifically isha'ssotah is very very easily rebuttled from actual halacha to minhag in terms of hair covering.”- Again, I’m not sure what you mean; unless you define halacha as the Conservative do, or reject the authority of halacha as the reform, some form of hair-covering for a married woman is ‘halacha’ in it’s strictest sense. Things in the shulchan aruch etc are not ‘minhagim’.

“isha'ssotah”- I think you mean “isha sota” (אשה סוטה), “veering woman”.

“So your claim is a mere scare tactic for men to have control of their women”- listen, you can look it up yourself, heck, I even wrote a blog post on a ...related point..if you’d find that informative.

If your argument is on the mishna: like you said, covering of the hair has never been quite an unusual thing among Jews, so there usually wasn’t much to coerce. To the contrary; it was unusual behavior and a big turn-off on the guys’ part, which warranted a divorce.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Ki Sarita: You’re saying that as if those bossy Ashkenazi wives don’t “make” their husbands do things. ...they obviously mean he’ll put a lot of verbal/emotional pressure on her.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

...I think I said I would link to my post about this, but it seems I didn't, so:

Anonymous said...

your fiance is only slightly more likely to "make" you cover your hair then your father will "make" your mother cover her hair...basically it aint gonna happen.

Fav. anonymous

Anonymous said...

I do not think that a husband would ever ask his wife to do that. His unmarried brother might..

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

like Jessica said it's the women who "makes" her husband do things, the women is behind the man, she can be the good or bad influence.

The way I understand it, is that sometimes men can change spiritually with marriage or children and they may start to have different views, then they would try to explain, and see if the wife is willing to "grow" with them.

There was actually a whole article about a similar idea, where men decided they wanted to become chassidish, and the wives beforehand had said absolutely not, that they wouldn't want their husbands wearing knickers and white socks, but then eventually they learned to appreciate it and decided to make their husbands happy, and figured it wouldn't hurt. Although of course not all had that reaction.

Vox Populi said...

>Does anyone know how someone can *make* a woman cover her hair?

Um, the same way people force their wives to wear Burkas? Force. It's how people get people to do things they don't want to do. Ta-da!

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- "growing" with your husband is one thing. its another that in a few months he'll announce he alwyas wanted his wife to cover her hair, but juust decided it was best to lie throughout all those discussions throughout their premarital courtship regarding the fact that she shouldn't cover her hair, or its her choice, or whatever they discussed....
If my husband decided to learn with a frummier Rav one morning I'd know about it.

VP- I sure hope a Jewish man or any man ever "makes" his wife -or any woman-do anything using that way

Jewish Side of Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: right that is different, it wouldn't be right for a person to be the way you explained, and lie about it and then after the marriage say something different.

Deborah Shaya said...

There is No codified Halacha that a married woman must cover her hair totally and constantly whenever she steps out of her house.

The Halachah has been MISinterpreted. When the Halachah refers to "Covering hair," it does not mean "Cover your hair with hair!" and "constantly for life."
The Halachah is that:

A married woman is required to cover her hair when:

(1) she lights the candles to welcome in Shabbat and Yom Tov – lechavod Shabbat ve Yom Tov, and

(2) when she goes to the Synagogue, because that is the place of Kedusha.

The Halacha does not require anything more from married women. This is the true interpretation of the Halacha.

The misinterpretation of the Torah is completely Assur, and a twisting of the Torah.The Torah must remain straight.

Deborah Shaya said...

In ancient times, a woman would only cover her hair upon entering the Beit HaMikdash. Similarly for the Sotah-otherwise she would not be required to cover her hair ordinarily, day to day.

It is very important for people to know and realise that when a married woman covers her hair with 'Real Hair' the woman is covering herself with 100% Tumah. This is totally against the Torah.

Nothing could be more nonsensical than for a Jewish woman to cover her hair with someone else's hair -who was not Jewish as well! She can never fully be sure that this 'hair' has not come from meitim-despite any guarantee by the seller.This 'real hair' is doubly and in some circumstances, triply Tumah.

1.It will contain the leftover dead hair cells from another person - however much it has been treated, the tumah is still there.

2.This other person (likely to be a non-Jew who most likely was involved in some kind of Avodah Zarah) may have eaten bacon, ham, lobster etc, all of which are totally forbidden as unclean and non-kosher foods in Halacha.

3.If the woman happens to be the wife of a COHEN, then she is bringing her husband into close contact and proximity with meitim and Tumah Every day, and throughout their married life. This is clearly strictly against the Torah.

Deborah Shaya said...

There is nothing more degrading and demeaning to a woman than to make her cover her hair FOR LIFE upon marriage.It is an abhorrent practice.

Any man who makes such a ridiculous demand on his wife, or wife-to-be, should similarly also be required by his wife to wear: long white stockings, even in the summer; a fur streimel; grow a long beard; wear a black hat and coat constantly, and cover his face when he speaks to his wife.Wigs -"la perruque"- were merely a fashion item in the time of Louis XIV-they are not for the Jewish woman!

Rabbi Menachem Schneeersohn tz”l, gave the directive that a married woman must cover her head with a “sheitel.” This needs to be corrected. Rabbi Schneersohn a"h, was a Tzaddik, – but on this – he was, unfortunately not correct.

It is extremely unhealthy and unhygienic for a woman to cover her hair constantly.The hair needs oxygen to breathe.A woman's hair will lose its natural beauty and shine, she may have scalp problems, some of her hair may fall out, she may get headaches, and she may end up cutting it short like a man, when she always wore it long, in order not to have too much discomfort from her hair covering.

Do you think that HaKadosh Baruch Hu commanded this of women? I can assure you that He did not.

The commmandments are not meant to cause so much repression and oppression in women.

Was Chava created with a wig? Of course not! Did she start wearing a wig? Of course not!

Please Wake Up.

Use the spark of intelligence that Hakadosh Baruch Hu gave to you and blessed you with.

And give your wig back to your husband if you wear one.

Deborah Shaya said...

1. To all the women who are wondering about the sources:

We have all been created, "Betselem Elokim" - "in the image of Elokim."
This means that we have been given something called "intelligence." The source is the very first Parsha, Bereishit - 1:27. It is time that people use the spark of intelligence and Kedusha with which Hashem has blessed them.

If your rabbi will tell you to go and jump into the depths of a glacier, presumably you would do that too – and give me a source for it?

“According to the Zohar”, I should also be covering my hair with a wig when I have a bath. “According to the Zohar and the Gemara” and all the sources that have misinterpreted the Halachah, and MIStranslated the Zohar, I should also have been born with a WIG on my head.

These sources and translations are incorrect, as they have deviated very far from the true and correct interpretation, of the Halachah.

Deborah Shaya said...

2.Remember that the Jewish women are very, very holy. They are much more holy than the men. Look at the exemplary behaviour of the women at Har Sinai.

The women never sinned at the Eigel, and so are greatly elevated. Many of the men, unfortunately, ran after a calf made out of a lump of gold – after they had just been given the Torah, and seen the greatest of all Revelations. The women refused to give their gold for the avodah zarah of the men.

The women were greatly elevated after such a wonderful display of Emunah, and they are regarded very highly in Shamayim.

That is why women are not even required to pray. They can pray at home on their own. Nor do women have to make up a minyan. That is how holy the Jewish women are. Men have to pray 3 times a day to remind them of their Creator.

The men are telling the women to put the hair of a non-Jewish woman who may have eaten things like snakes and sharks and alligators, and has worshipped in churches, Buddist temples or Hindu temples : on their own Heads. They had better wake up.

If the men don’t want to wake up to the truth, and the true interpretation of the Halacha, the women will wake them up – whether they like it or not.

3. Many righteous women influenced their husbands for the good at the Chet Haeigel and at the time of Korach.

It was these righteous women who succeeded in bringing their husbands back to their senses.

And because of these great women, the lives of their husbands were saved. Those men therefore turned away from the madness of avodah zarah, and the rebellion of Korach against Hashem's choice of Aharon, as Cohen HaGadol.

Deborah Shaya said...

4. Look at the Jewish women in history, and remember how holy they are.

(a) Yaakov, who was the greatest of the Avot, came to marry the 2 daughters of Lavan, Rachel and Leah. Lavan was not exactly a tzaddik. Yaakov went to Lavan, of all people, to marry his 2 daughters – not 1 daughter, but his 2 daughters. Nothing could be greater than that.

(b) Rut, who came from Moav, became the ancestor of David Hamelech.

(c ) Batya, the daughter of Paroh, was given eternal life because she rescued Moshe from the river. No one could have been more evil than Paroh.

(d) Devorah, was a Neviah, and also a Judge.

Women who came from such adverse backgrounds, were able to become builders of Am Yisrael. That is how holy the women are, and how much more elevated they are than the men.

This was never the case with men. It never happened the other way round.

Don't tell me it is holy for me to wear a WIG! Hair over my own hair? This is ridiculous!

Similarly, don’t tell me it is holy for me to plonk a permanent head covering on my head for the rest of my life. This is equally vile.

Please Wake Up.

Use the spark of intelligence that Hakadosh Baruch Hu gave to you and blessed you with.

And give your wig back to your husband if you wear one.

Deborah Shaya said...

5. Remember: Not a single “dayan” or “rabbi” has the slightest bit of interest in correcting the situation for the women. Therefore, the women will have to correct the situation................for ..................themselves.

Whether you wish to accept the correction – which is true – is up to you. Are you going to live by the truth? Are you going to use the spark of intelligence that Hashem gave to you and all women? Or are you going to follow rabbis and dayanim who tell you to wear a wig in a Heat Wave – and you thank them for it as well?

William Dwek said...

The next things the ‘rabbis’ will come up with is to tell the woman to wear a CARPET on her head.

Not a sheitel AND a hat, but a Carpet. Or you could go for 5 shaitels on your heads and a rug.

And do you know what the Jewish woman will say to her husband?

‘Yes, husband! I am now wearing a carpet on my head!’

You women must either be extremely thick, or petrified.