Thursday, January 21, 2010

buy it yourself

“However, this does not mean that you should not buy your future daughter in law a ring that is possibly more than you would have wanted to spend. I don't mean exorbitantly, maybe another $1000.”

That quote is one I found in the comments of one of Orthonomics post about dependency of today’s couples on their parents…

I personally got completely agitated by that comment right there.

I understand a MIL, a sister, or a SIL asking to accompany a guy when he goes to purchase his girlfriend (dating partner) her ring, but for someone other than the chosson to pay for it? Seriously? Didn’t the guy ever work?

No, I forgot… guys these days are so holy that they don’t need to work!

I’m not on the madraga to constantly know that “Hashem provides” (by making parents/inlaws sick from overwork, and lack of retirement funds)

Seriously? Wtf?

33 comments:

harry-er than them all said...

While i understand your sentiment, a ring is a very expensive proposition. Personally, I do have some money put away for it, but not nearly enough. I know my parents plan on helping me out with it, and I definitely plan on paying them back. So while its true that it should come from the groom, not many 22, 23, or even 26 year olds even if they do work, can afford the 4K that it costs.
(oh and that is the price of a cheaper ring)

mlevin said...

harry-er - than how are you planning on paying your bills and other expenses if you can't even put together 4k?

harry-er than them all said...

there is quite a difference between being able to pay my bills (which right now are not very many) and being able to front 4-5k at one shot.

Ask someone who is buying a house. They may be able to afford the monthly mortgage payments. However factor in the cost of a down-payment and people cannot front that. at least not till after a few YEARS of earning a decent salary.

mlevin said...

monthly rent alone is over $1000 plus all other additional bills. 4K for a ring is between one and two months of living expenses. You can always wait one more month to get engaged...

harry-er than them all said...

and your assumption is that i don't pay all those now, and that i earn that much more.

having a bit put away means for certain rainy day stuff, and other big expenses that i may need in my life. getting someone to help me in the immediate future to pay for a ring isn't the biggest deal, especially since i plan on paying them back.

how many people do you know paid for their own weddings? rings?

mlevin said...

The point of an engagement ring is an insurance policy in case she needs money she can always sell it and pay for the emergency.

The point of a big wedding is that parents are celebrating the union of their daughter or son and want everyone else to be part of that celebration.

Throwing your own wedding is contradictory to the whole definition and the same as borrowing money to pay for a ring
is like borrowing money to pay your insurance bill. Makes no sense.

Anonymous said...

4K may be the price for a cheaper ring, buttt there probably are different places and venues to buy rings, rather than a traditional dept store or Kay (off top of my head) and get the cheapest deal possible.

I also dont know too many 20 somethings who could fork out 4K - I know a couple guys who took out loans to buy a ring. If parents have money, and if guy is in situation where he's just starting career or in grad school or something, I dont see paretns loaning the money to son as bad.dede

Anonymous said...

Another idea for guys is, if possible, to give his gf a family heirloom engagement ring kinda thing, like a great grandmother's (only if possible tho) means he doesnt have to buy one, and also the ring would be very special to receive.

harry-er than them all said...

i guess that is where are point of contention is: my understanding of an engagement ring is different. The ring is supposed to remind each other of the happiest time in their lives. I don't think that people should sell their engagement rings for that reason. It is something she should always keep.

oh and to the anonymous's, 4k is the cheaper venues, with simpler settings. I once had to look into all of the details (unfortunately it did not work out), so i am well aware of the costs. So while your family heirloom might mean something to you, she may not like the style

mlevin said...

1. All you need is a photograph to remind you of a happiest time of your life.

2. It is not the point of contention, it is the definition of a ring. All cultures have similar customs. A man gives something to his bride for living the safety of her parents' house so that in case of emergency, when he is not able to provide for her, she could use it. The ring or jewelry are used because they are something small, yet easily convertible to cash. If no such emergency exists, she passes that ring and other jewelry that she owns to her daughters to secure their futures.

Anonymous said...

Look for wholesalers (you may need someone who has a connection and can point you to one). If you're ok with smaller and simpler, but still elegant, you can definitely go under $4000.

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

frumskeptic said...

I don't understand why frum people at the way they do when it comes towedding expenses (in this case a ring).
its as if getting engaged is some new trend we can't keep up with. like the olden day frummies never got married and today its anew burden to keep up with the Joneses.

seriously... from birth you know your purpose was to breed. Your entire history produced you (Like pedigree with dogs)... everyone knows if you have yichus, how much money your parents have, and from their they match you and hope you give your kid the right shots.

that's the reality of the situation. a guy knows it from birth. why does he wait till he's already dating to get a job? where was he when his neigbor needed shoveling? or neighbors needed his car washed?
girls babysit...

complaining is a way to show the irresponsibility of the community.
grow up before you get.

Yes there are exceptions (hard life, teenage work money went to help family out etc) but general rule, guy should have no problem at 22 to fork over $4000 if not more. specifically becausehe shoulda been responsible enough to know hed need it (afteall he always knew a frum boy gets married)

what happened to 22 yrs of birthday money??

tesyaa said...

Thank you for weighing in on this!!

frumskeptic said...

sorry for the repeat comments...

but I forgot to mention... what about Bar Mitzvah money?

And why is it so simple for a parents of a large family to be able to fork over $4000+ for a ring? Is it cuz they can put it against their second mortgage/home equity/ credit card?

A 22 yr old is probably in better shape than most parents are now-a-days... he has few expenses (if any).

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. THere are responsible parents, but why force them to make irresponsible decisions? Is debt a way to keep up with the JOneses...
if you're getting married YOU foot the bill... if you really cannot afford the ring, push off engagment, or explain it the lady. If she wants a ring even tho you may end up behind on rent... you really should reconsider the marraige...

Anonymous said...

there are plenty of reasons a 22 y/o might not be able to fork up $4k.

School and Rent, specifically. Also, having a car.

Anonymous said...

my, (BH) very financially responsible, husband didnt not have 4.5k for my ring, so he "borrowed" 1k from my grandmother, who is still waiting for the grand back.
:) good luck to babushka
fav anony...

G*3 said...

Why does the guy have to buy his fiancee a sparkly rock and bit of shiny metal in the first place?

Why doesn't the girl buy a diamond ring for the guy?

The ring is symbolic of ropes/chains used by men to secure women way back when, and the need for a diamond is a testament to DeBeer's marketing department.


How's that for romantic?

As for life savings from when you're a kid going towards a ring, before I started working at 20 I had a little over $2000, and that's including Bar Mitzvah money and working at a day camp for three summers. Not everyone has rich grandparents who give them birthday presents in the triple digits every year.

frumskeptic said...

I don't actually aprove of "life savings" going for the ring.
I'm more for "you can't afford it, don't buy it". Rather than expect parents to buy things.

I never had rich grandparents give me a ton of money either... I babysat and kept my birthday money. I also wasn't a money waster. if my parents didn't gimme money for something I wanted, I took it as a sign that not only wasn't it worht their money, it wasn't worth mine either.

according to the old testament stories...our avos did give some nice gifts to the ladies. so while the ring and diamond are more of a western or modern concept, a bride should definitly be given something of value...
$4000 isn't a lot of money in the general scheme of things when you're looking for an apt or furniture. you can't afford that? fine. don't expect ur parents to pay for it. IF YOU can't afford anything, reconsider your idea of marraige... how the hell u gonna pay rent?

don't get married if u don't have a job and a tad in savings (specifically for men, its their respsibility according to the very KETUBA they sign). its irresponsibe and downright stupid.

Anonymous said...

Depends on the circumstances. My ring cost $1,250 (I don't see any reason it could EVER be 4,000, Harry), and you better believe my in-laws were paying for it. Seeing as I strongly did not want a ring, and my mother-in-law, for whatever reasons she had, would not leave me alone about it. So why should my husband have to foot that bill? Even now, I wear it maybe once a month.

Give me a break, mlevin- whether that's the case ideally, as far as my experience has shown, that is NOT why people buy rings. It's either because the female wants it or because it's the "done" thing. Whatever the case is (and I have issues with both of those reasons), I don't think most people are thinking of it being an insurance policy. Because really, how many people do you know who sold their rings when times got tough? (I am not talking about stories belonging to a different century.)

frumskeptic said...

anonymous- if your inlaws are paying for the ring cuz they felt it was necessary, not because you wanted it, its their issue...so any normal person would agree wiht u, they should foot the bill.

The case that mlevin is talking about, is, in actuality why guys give girls rings. Its like collateral. I remember a teacher discussing it. A guy is supposed to be giving his bride a gift of value (as I mentioned earlier) for her to possess in case she needs substinance andhe cannot provide it.the diamond ring itself is a relatively modern concept. but totally serves the purpose...

anyway... the reason this century wouldn't have stories of women selling their rings, is beacuse this century signs up for another credit card instead.

ouur time frummies are heavily indebt... and its because (as orthonomics actually mentioned in another one of her posts) our generation has all types of "assets" (various silver -mezuzahs, washing cups, bechers..., and jewlery) and no income.

if women don't start selling their rings to afford stuff, it'll be because they're probably gonna buy a new set of silverware for pesach on that new credit card with 0 APR for the first year!! woohooo!! *rollseyes*

Moshe said...

4K minimum? Seriously? Ever heard of bidz? And since when is it a requirement for an engagement ring to be a minimum 1C?

The guy should buy it himself. But, the girl shouldn't expect something huge if the guy can't afford it. And since when is it all about the ring?

Anonymous said...

I gave my wife a simple gold band for the marriage, no engagement ring until a few years into the marriage.

She rarely wears it at all.

We've been married 18 years.

I could have bought her one for 8 thousand if I borrowed the money, but I wanted to buy other things we needed, like furniture, standard of living, etc.

It's just a rock, and frankly not all that pretty to look at. How often do you stare for hours at a diamond? I find them interesting for about ten seconds or so.

Books are far more interesting, photographs if you can't read will do, and I like to look at people's faces rather than their social status symbols over-valued rocks that are basically bits of hard glass on a metal band.

Seriously, if I were stuck on an island and had a choice of 10,000 novels and one diamond ring, or 10,001 novels, I'd take trade the diamond for the extra book.

Seriously, if there were no other people on the planet, I'd probably value a paper-clip more than a diamond.

As for the girls, they would be far better off getting a T-Bill or stock or something they can cash in after 24 months, probably when they need a reward for putting up with the guy for two years.

frumskeptic said...

jewelry is just as much an asset as a T-Bill...

Anonymous said...

To sell an engagement ring for a car would probably lose some of the purchase value, plus have negative suggestions about the viability of the marriage.

A T-bill (or other financial instrument) is designed for getting money back in the future. Cashing it in for a down payment on a house is not seen as a desperation move.

A house (or car, etc) can in turn be used to reduce rent or get to a job. I would think that pretty rocks would be something reserved for someone with no other needs, education finished, children graduated from higher learning, grandkids in good hands, then if shiny objects costing thousands of dollars is your cup of tea, I could see that, being one step above throwing it out the window from a moving.

Anonymous said...

car.

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