Thursday, July 22, 2010

saving neshamos?

I was at shul on shabbos and actually stayed to listen to the speech - can’t figure out why Rabbi’s are allowed to speak! Priests/Reverands give sermons shouldn’t speeches be considered goyish now? - Anyway, the speech was about a whole bunch of things which only proved that Rabbi’s don’t understand what being an employee in corporate America is like… but I’m not going to get into that… What irritated me most, is what I’m here to write about… Kiruv (sorta).

During the speech the Rabbi was saying something about kiruv and how kiruv professionals “save” countless neshamos, but in the meantime their own kids are known to regularly go off the derech.

Now, I’d like to ask

1- What are these non-frum Jews being “saved” from by becoming frum?

*As Jews we don’t believe in hell in the way Christians do. We don’t believe in eternal damnation; nor do we believe in this huge red monster who will keep us in a huge hot fire cave

*As Jews we are taught to believe that Gd that is merciful and forgiving. When we pass away (@ 120) we’ll go through like a t'shuva process to cleanse ourselves for a few months and then we go to a good place.

*As Jews if we have any intellectual honesty, we know we’re *all* gonna end up in a form of gehenim anyway. Kosher or not… and even the worst man just ends up there for a little longer (except those who qualify for the “yimach shemom’ category)… so really, what are we saving them from? We’re not saving them from anything we’re not already *all* gonna be a part of.

*Religion is not for everyone. Some people can’t have their lives dictated by diets that are the “fad”. Nor can they live a life in which they have to worry about everything they serve in their house because someone else may not eat there. Some people just shouldn't be religious.

So really what are we saving them from other than their own ability to CHOOSE what they want, without it being bombarded down by BS crap?

2- If Kiruv-professional kids are known to be going off the derech, REGULARLY, why in the hell are we even DOING COMMERCIAL KIRUV?

- *Chessed* begins at home… so even if a frum persons neshama is somehow “safer” (still don’t know how) than a non-frum persons neshama, why are we risking the neshamos of those who are *already* frum? Isn’t there a thing that Gd only minimally punishes us if we’re unaware that we’re doing something wrong, whereas if we *know* we’re doing something wrong our punishment is that much worse? So why are we educating a public that doesn’t really know how much wrong they’re doing while allowing people who *know* perfectly well HOW MUCH WRONG they’re doing to still not do it? Why not just leave the non-frum Jews non-frum and allow the Frum Jews to REMAIN frum. If we allow that, there is minimul punishment amongst the Jews.

Pretty much, Rabbis go on and on and preach about how "chesed begins at home", they dont practice what they preach, and BAM, their own kids go OTD, and they validate it by claiming they "saved" neshamos!


jewish philosopher said...

In the second half of Aleinu we say

we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,and to completely cut off all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy empire. And for all living flesh to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the Earth to turn to You. May all the world's inhabitants recognize and know that to You every knee must bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before You, Adonai, our God, may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious
name, and may all take upon themselves the yoke of Your rule.

Kiruv workers are trying to bring this about.

They are also fulfilling the commandment

"thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbour, and not bear sin because of him." Leviticus 19:17

Moshe said...

The "commandment" of
"Thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbour, and not bear sin because of him." applies only when he will listen. If he will not listen, you should not rebuke him as you will cause him to sin more and his sin will be on you.

I very much doubt the claim about kiruv professionals kids' going OTD.

There are many different and diverging views regarding what happens when a person dies. While punishment may be "curved", reward may not be.

frumskeptic said...

Moshe- I think that if big shot rabbi's actually admit that kiruv professionals children tend to go otd, then yes, we've got a problem.

They don't like to admit problems.

Also, no one really knows anything, which is my point. MIND your own business, and stop making nonsense arguments.

There's no money to be found. Yeshiva's are bankrupt and families are struggling...
and our tzedakah is going to make people frum... and for what?

SAVE what you already have!

connor said...

You might not know ( censorship in FrumWorld being what it is) that the notion of Rabbis delivering "sermons" - "Right there in shul!" was originally considered heinous - worse:"goyish". Kiruv distorts, withholds, and lies, in order to attract the vulnerable - as all missionaries and cults do. Fact is, the truly knowledgeable and wise understand Torah to be what it is: a mix of mythology, and outright lies; some beautiful, others twisted and sick. Sadly, some are perceived as "OTD" when in fact, they are actually ON "The Derech" - just a different (and finer) one. But that, of course, requires courage, and true thinking, - both of which are considered somewhat suspicious in FrumWorld.