Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Get a new Rav

My mom's friend lives in a pretty bad neighborhood because she cannot afford to live in a better one.

Not trying to sound racist here, but the general rule of "bad neighborhood" in NY means either it's shvartze-ville or hispanic-ville.

Anyway, so mom's friend isn't really frum, but she is very pro-Jewish so she has a family Rav.

One day when she was speaking to this Rav, he said to her "You should get out of that neighborhood before your daughter comes home with a shvartze"

Aside from that being just a general disturbing (and outright racist) statment, I find it stupid as well for the following reasons

1- the girl is quite young (under 10)

2- both her kids go to yeshiva.

3- she doesn't allow them to socialize with anyone in the neighborhood, and she's super over-protective.


Anyway, so he made that woman cry.

I honestly don't think I would've cried. I would've found a new Rabbi.


Anonymous said...

You are calling this Rabbi racist - yet you refer to African Americans as "shvartzes?" Wow.

Moshe said...

"Deal, did you find me a good job yet? Nu, stop wasting time and go look."

frum single female said...

first of all , does this rav plan on helping your mom's friend pay rent in a better neighborhood?
furthermore, alot of frum people LIKE living in bad neighborhoods so they can tell their kids that WE are not like THEM .

Mikeinmidwood said...

I hate living near the spanish, they always get your bike for christmas.

Anonymous said...

"You are calling this Rabbi racist - yet you refer to African Americans as "shvartzes?" Wow."

Anon, you have it backwards. "Shvartze" just means someone who is Black. "African-American" on the other hand, is a condescending term that is often used by those who wish to portray themselves as being enlightened.

As for the Rav, I'd need to see more before calling him a racist. If he's like many Ravs I know, he'd say the same thing about any non-Jewish contact. So if someone, let's say, lived in a Swedish neighborhood, the Rav would say "You need to move, or your daughter will bring home a guy named Ole."

Ichabod Chrain

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

This whole naming Black/White thing is so confusing. Ten years ago they said "African America" is more correct than "Black", yet the Whites never call themselves "European Americans", and anyway, they use "Black" on the new all the time.

I mean first of all, scientifically there are not more than one human "race", the differences in appearance are not representative of different "races" obviously. But if you do want to classify people by skin pigmentation (since in certain countries it reflects social groupings) than why is "Black" (English) ok, yet "Nigre" (French) or "Schwarze" (German) not ok? Either way, Whites are obviously not quite white and Blacks are not black (not to mention there are obviously different shades of pigmentation).

...in my own opinion it's best to say "of African decent" or "of European decent" etc.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"Americans" and "news": last letters missing.

Anonymous said...

African American, African decent" ,European decent" etc.
is a leftist political term.

White, Black & Latinos is the way to go.

We are all kind of racists, but all Rabbi meant to say in this case 'She may bring a goy' in this case Black.

His comment sounded bad and it is a true statement/omment. I would not make bid deal out of it.
Black is shvartze.

Anonymous H

frumskeptic said...

honestly, what's wrong with shvartze. isn't it just a way to call someone black in yiddish?

all this african-american crap irritates me. some people haven't had african ancestors since way before the slave trade. plus very often people can tell apart african blacks and caribbean blacks. why should they be labled the same way? in fact a Jamaican black at my office said she'd never date an 'African-American' and she didn't mean other blacks generally.

David said...

"Anon, you have it backwards. "Shvartze" just means someone who is Black."

Actually, OFS, Anon was right. The term "schvartze," although it literally means "black" has acquired a rather negative connotation. The use of the term "Shvartze-ville" is absolutely negative. I appreciate your condemnation of the rabbi's racism, but you're slipping into the same thing here.

Moshe said...

The comments seem to have gotten a bit sidetracked. Yes, the Rabbi said something "racist", then again what rabbi wouldn't say something like that.
I believe the main point of the post was this rabbi's insensitivity to the woman's financial situation. It's like if he would come over to a congregant who just lost a job and instead of offering help finding another, would say "You know, your kids are gonna end up on the streets because of you. And don't forget to pay your membership."

Anonymous said...

Shvartze-ville" is absolutely NOT negative and Frum-ville in NOT negative. Just a way of saying it.

I am NOT condemning of the rabbi's "racist" remark at all. It just sounds bad, but nothing wrong behind it.

All Rabbi meant to say in this case 'She may bring a goy' in this case Black.
He stated a good point.

Anonymous H

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

FS: Like I said, "Niger" is also just "Black" in French, though you've gotta draw the line somewhere in regards to how people use the word.

"..plus very often people can tell apart african blacks and caribbean blacks."- Which is why "West African" or "West African decent" is more appropriate.

Again, in my opinion there could be nothing more incorrect than calling the "Whites" Americans, and the native people "Indians". They are unquestionably the "Americans". People who's Western European or West African ancestors have been here for centuries should be called for what they are, "Americans of Western European (or West African) decent" or something along those lines.

The early English colonizers of this country saw their relationship with their kidnapped Africans in very black/white terms. "White" is a praise, while "Black" is derogatory (which, again, is why they didn't call themselves peach or pink and the Blacks brown or tan.

The current president is "Black" and not anything else (although he is just as much Black as he is White), partly because in America if a man had a child with a slave woman, the child was a slave, and if a woman had a child with a slave man, this child too would be a slave. There were no "halves", neither are there today.

These are quite primitive motions though, having nothing to do with political leanings or agendas. As I mentioned, the people of Africa are not "racially" different than Europeans; just the fact that we can bear children with one another is enough to demonstrate we are one species.

Moshe said...

Before we start about the whole slave crap, let's get something straight.
Only the first batch of slaves were kidnapped. Afterwards, African slaves were traded for goods. Tribal leaders are the ones who sold their people to the whites. Also, the slave trade was run by the Dutch, not by the English.

Not only blacks were slaves. American Indians, Irish, Scotts, Germans and even English were also used as slaves.

frumskeptic said...

MOshe- "I believe the main point of the post was this rabbi's insensitivity to the woman's financial situation. "

Yup yup. that was the point. I just pointed out the racism to dramatize the stupidity of the Rabbi. I'm used to frummies being racist. nothing new.

frumskeptic said...

Anonymous H-

"All Rabbi meant to say in this case 'She may bring a goy' in this case Black.
He stated a good point."

I pointed out, her kids go to yeshiva's. And she's overprotective, so they aren't even playing with other kids in the neighborhood.

Aside from that, even in a jew neighborhood, there are still usually a few goyish families. Take a look at what is called Flatbush and Boro Park. There are ALOT of goyim.

THere is no recipe in preventing your kid from goig off the derech.

Sometimes the kids of the most modern end up the frummest, and sometimes the kids of the frummy's end up OTD. People aren't cookie-cut. There is individuality. Just because someone lives in bad nieghborhood, doesn't mean they'll end up bringing home a black guy or generally a goy. Just means you gotta be extra careful. If you can'tafford it, wth are you supposed to do? Go on welfare like the "kollel yungerman?" Apply for section 8?

Wouldn't a kid be just as likely to bring home a goy if they see their parents are encouraged to lie and cheat the government to maintain their "religious" life-style?

kisarita said...

moshe that is not true,
in the beginning people tried using those other folks as slaves as they could easily escape and blend in with other white folks. so using them as slaves died out pretty quickly.

black people couldn't blend in and had no more home to run to.

then they became more and more brutal so they had to invent racist justifications like balcks being inferior and not quite human in order to maintain the practice.

Moshe said...

So which is not true? They were used as slaves.

Anonymous said...

David said "The term "schvartze," although it literally means "black" has acquired a rather negative connotation."

It has? When did that happen? Connotations in Yiddish are based on intonations. If you don't intone the word with contempt, it doesn't sound contemptuous. And if it has a negative connotation, then what Yiddish word would you use refer to the Black race?

Shlomo said "in my own opinion it's best to say "of African descent". . ."

In that case you probably should be saying "of Sub Saharan African descent." But that's kind of unwieldy, and doesn't tell you if they're descendants of the Boers. Then again, if you go back far enough Caucasians are also of African descent.

Ichabod Chrain

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

איכבוד: It's still way better than "Black"..

Anonymous said...

Calling people Black, White, Asian etc., is the way to go.

No need to bring up slavery.
It does not metter who started slave trade. Black/shvartze live here better that their 'relatives' in any country of Africa or West Indies.

All black people living in this country should not be called
"African-American". It just a political term.

I agree that if someone lives in bad neighborhood, doesn't mean they'll end up bringing home a black guy or generally a goy. It is better to play safe and move out of the neighborhood by all means. As I understood, the Family used as an example is not very frum.
You can not keep children at home and not let them to communicate with other children.

Anonymous H

Moshe said...

Anon H, Grammar Nazi gives you a big, fat F--.

Living in a good neighborhood is also dangerous. What if your kids bring home, chas v'shalom, an MO!

Anonymous said...

Moshe/Grammar Nazi,

I am not writing poems. Just trying to express my opinion. I am typing very fast, therefore it is increasing chances of making mistakes.
No need to be sarcastic. Thing should not get personal.

Your comment is not subject related!

Moshe said...

Typing very fast? FF and Chrome underline typos no matter how fast you type :-P

Of course it is. It even relates to a couple previous posts.

Tsipora said...

That is a derogatory term and as an African American Jew, I take offense.

Tsipora said...

And no one uses "schvartze" in a lovey dovey way. It has a certain connotation. African American I am because I have dual citizenship- US and the country my parents came from. I don't mind blacks using the term because they do so as a form of reconnecting from a place lost to them. Makes sense.

frumskeptic said...

Tsipora, many people use shvartze as a general term. Not always in a derogatory way.

I certainly did not mean it as an offense. Infact, the point of this post wasn't even about racism, it was just a side point.

And while YOU don't mind being called an African-American, alot of black people that I know DO infact mind, as they are not exactly from Africa (in the past few generations).

OlderThanYou said...

I'm sorry to get off the topic everyone is talking about, but getting back to the original topic - If you think the Rabbi has a valid point, I don't think its so unreasonable to say that the time to move is NOW. Time flies, and before you know it, this 10 year old daughter will be hitting 20.
It happens before you can turn around!!