Wednesday, March 4, 2009

If you wear a suit, wear it right!

One of my biggest pet-peeves is the way frum people dress. The black hat thing bothers me but not as much as the suit-bearded-shlepper look. I just hate it. It's disgusting. The only positive to the shlepper look, is that it further proves that frum people are full of crap.

The whole thing works like this. Frummies claim the black/white penguin/oreo look is "Jewish", (that's just as "Jewish" as driving a Honda Odyssey -wait 10 years when that'll be the only 'kosher' car).

There always comes a time when a Rabbi is cornered and has no option but to admit that the "Jew" clothes is not in fact Jewish (but the style of European goyish nobility way back in the day). To save his a$$ the Rabbi automatically throws a defense and says "Would you greet the President of the United States or the Queen of England in your jeans? ...So then why would you daven or fulfill mitzvahs in them?"

I hate that question. It is such a stupid question. If any guy is dressed in jeans that fit him and an un-stained t-shirt he automatically looks WAY better than your typical average yeshivish guy with his tzitzit hanging out with his messy beard, visibly worn shirt and one-size-fits all suit.

I recently witnessed something that bothered me soooo much and so I'm sharing something with you:

Proper rules of etiquette - if a guy has his suit jacket buttoned while he is standing, as he takes a seat he is supposed to unbutton it. It's a social norm. It's something I view as common sense (and I'm not a male!). Why? Because when the guy sits if he does not unbutton himself the suit is likely to bulge in front of him (leaving him looking like a shlepper).

I recently saw one of those "proper dress while davening" guys not unbutton his button as he sat. This guy who supposedly serves Gd, looked like a complete shlemazzel, especially since he had his tzitzit untucked and one of the most unkept- beards ever. It's as if the invention of the razor was yet to be discovered.

If you're going to look down on people because they don't dress like a proper "ben-Torah" and they wear jeans, at least do yourselves a favor and wear your suit better than the jean-wearer pulls off his "casual" look. Don't forget to unbutton the button, keep yourself tucked in, and clean your beard. OMG it's not meant to be a crumb collector! If you can't do that, stop judging the guys who wear jeans, at least they look more hygienic than you do.

If you wear a suit, wear it right. If you can't do that. SHUT UP and find the commandment where it says "And thou shall not wear jeans" and then the commentary that reads "Even if the jean wearer is neater" Because believe me, the board of health and the CDC would much quicker allow the "modern orthodox jean-wearer" than your typical rebbe into the white house.


jewish philosopher said...

Are you trying to win a contest for the most superficial and rude person on the Internet? Are you 21 or 12?

Moshe said...

Dang it, teh Jew Troll beat me to first comment.

So is this someone from your shul or from the soup kitchen. ;-)

There is no law about wearing jeans. However, there is a law about someone who learns or a rabbi wearing torn or stained clothing.

I also like the reason behind wearing a hat, it's a double covering. So's a velvet kippa. And same crap about gartel.

Best way to answer a frummie about the penguin suit, "My grandparent weren't Nazis and neither am I."
Remember the picture of my grand-grand-grandparents? No Nazi hat and no Nazi suit.

David said...

"Would you greet the President of the United States or the Queen of England in your jeans?"

Certainly, if I were going to meet the president or the queen, I would dress for the occasion. That said, if the President or the Queen insisted on following me around 24/7 (as God is alleged to do), I think he or she would simply have to accustom him- or herself to my usual standards of dress. Same goes for God.

David said...

"Are you trying to win a contest for the most superficial and rude person on the Internet? Are you 21 or 12?"

Lee Epple! Bless my soul, OFS can't win that award-- it was given to you when you launched your new "Skeptics are all Perverts" line of discussion.

Moshe said...


jewish philosopher said...

OK, let me guess. One Frum Skeptic is the child of baalei tshuvah who either divorced or fought all the time. As a result she hates everything Jewish. But she is such a loser she knows that she could not last five minutes living independently in American society, so she pretends to Frum but, for fun, writes anti-Jewish drivel in her free time.

Very original.

jewish philosopher said...

Mr. Moshe, do you mind my asking you, seriously, if you hate everything Jewish why did you become a baal tshuvah? What's the story? On one hand, you claim to a member of a Frum shul, while on the other you sound like a typical bitter, secular, religion hating old Stalinist.

Moshe said...

Well...I know you shouldn't feed trolls but here goes...

I know FS' family and the only thing you got right is that they're BT.
Why does she, I and others hate frummies? Because they're stupid, uneducated, and don't have a brain of their own. Anything that goes in one ear, immediately comes out of their mouths. They don't actually know halocha, they just repeat what they heard in a shiur and consider everyone else an OTD.

hmm, not only are you a moron, you're also ignorant. Here's your take home project for this week, find for me 2 Russian Jews who like Stalin. Why 2? Because there's a 1 of everything out there. Like you for example.
1. When I was born Stalin was already dead.
2. I don't see any reason to follow stupid chumras.
3. I didn't know secular religion haters knew the difference between chumras, halochas and minchags.
4. My great-great-grandparents were frum. My great-great-grandfather, being a miller, was the head of the village. I have photos of him and his children and stories from my grandmother. I see no reason to wear and do stuff that my frum ancestors didn't. Even if I didn't know this about my ancestors, I see no reason of being a sheep and blindly doing stupid stuff that has nothing to do with Judaism.

jewish philosopher said...

"Why does she, I and others hate frummies? Because they're stupid, uneducated, and don't have a brain of their own."

Thank God you're so open minded. For a moment, I thought you were a bigot.

But if you aren't a frummie, what are you? An atheist? Modern Orthodox?

Moshe said...

Don't people like you consider those the same? Or was it MO = Reform? Or MO = Conservative? I'm so confused! I'm shomer shabbat but I don't know what I am! Help me o Lord! Tell me what certification I should affix to my kippa so that haters like JP can properly identify me!

frumskeptic said...


"I think he or she would simply have to accustom him- or herself to my usual standards of dress. Same goes for God."

LOL!! SOOOOO true!

Its like when those girls dress under the blanket because its "untznious" to dress infront of Gd. Its like "HELLO, GD SEES YOU UNDER THERE TOO!"

My father has a crazy co-worker who doesn't shower naked because its "untznious"

he showers in underwear.

I just can't understand how he dips in the mikvah.

Moshe- Don't feed JP. He's clearly deprived of attention and randomly browses blogs because Rebbeim didn't ban those like they did facebook.

Or well, they did, and JP is just a hypocrite.

Anonymous said...

David 1:01, great comment.

I never understood the unkempt beard theory. Maybe it's because the shul I belong to is MO, but I've never heard a good explanation for it, and I know plenty of frum people including Ravs who have no beards or decent looking beards Can anyone explain to me what the reasoning is.

Ichabod Chrain

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Ichabod: First off, I just wanted to mention how funny that name is from a "Hebraic" perspective, as well as the name "Jezebel". The first obviously means "no honor" in Hebrew, and the second "no garbage" (still, not very flattering), though I know these names have taken on new meaning in English..

Yeah, so, I wanted to mention to both FS and you that there is a HUGE distinction between a beard and the black hat/suit thing. The latter is the result of some recent social phenomenon, while the former comes explicitly from the Torah itself. While many Poskim obviously say that one may be lenient in this matter (beard), it is obviously ideal to sport a graceful (long) beard, as G-d said in His book "פאת זקנם לא יגלחו" and "לא תשחיתו את פאת זקנכם". It may not look right according to contemporary standards, but if one has faith in the bible, one must have faith in this as well (the same goes with a cloth head covering for all of a woman's hair). Anyway, the whole concept of a man having to be "attractive" to a woman is a relatively recent notion in our circles.

I, like JP, have always felt that those Jews who have immigrated from the Soviet Union usually took more than a few of the standards of that culture with them. One such standard is the ideal of beardlessness (though, in essence, the Russian Orthodox clergy have such beards-- which is far from a coincidence).

Also the issue of unkempt clothing; while I'm personally not at all a fan of such behavior, I do admit that it may have some legitimacy in religious thought, as it shows a complete separation from and indifference towards the norms and standards of materialism.

And one final thing: While I do admit that many of his stances are very arguable, it has long seemed to me that he is consistently accosted for no apparent reason.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Whoops, Re: last of my paragraphs- I was speaking of "JP".

frumskeptic said...

shlomo: this isn't beard vs. no beard, this is about having a beard that is kept nicely. having a beard is btwn man and Gd, having a disgusting beard which is never brushed or trimmed that collects crumbs has to be relative to society. We aren't supposed to perpetuate a stereotype of Jews being dirty.

about materialism:

I was pointing out the flaw in their argument. just like you wouldn't greet the president or the queen of England wearing jeans, u wouldn't wear a stained shirt, oversized suit, and a crumby beard.

before you attack my points get over your bigotry of Ashkenazy Jews.

jewish philosopher said...

OK, let me guess.

Moshe got addicted to Internet porn in recent months and therefore has begun hating God, other people and himself. Not good Moshe. Hatred attracts hatred. You will be miserable in this life and suffer eternal agony in the next.

One Frum Skeptic hates God, other people and herself because at least one of her parents has a personality disorder. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, OFS! She can't get a boyfriend because she's fat because she has always found solace in high calorie foods so she blogs to keep busy. Her future, same as Moshe.

frumskeptic said...

I don't see a correlation btwn blogging and high-calorie foods.

I do however see the correlation btwn not having a bf and having a daimond ring on my left-ring finger.

jewish philosopher said...

You're engaged to married? To what?

David said...

"Moshe got addicted to Internet porn in recent months and therefore has begun hating God, other people and himself."

Oh, God, there he goes again... it's like a corollary to Godwin's Law: "As a series of posts on a skeptic website grows longer, the probability that Jake Stein will accuse someone of liking porn approaches 1."

Heck, Jake, I'm just glad it's not my job to clean your computer keyboard. And, don't think that we don't all know about your fantasies about skeptic girls...

jewish philosopher said...

The anonymous loser speaks...

Anonymous said...


Does JP's comment about Moshe (and to a lesser extent) his question about your intended meet your standard for the type of comments you want on this blog? If not, you can do something about it, no? (I'm not saying to ban him, because there are things that can be done short of that.)

Shlomo, I knew about the posukim, but in my youth I never learned that it meant to not even trim the beard. The only people I knew who didn't trim their beards were Hasidim, and not even all of them had unkempt beards.
As for your comment about the name, thanks, I guess. But the name is simply a heimishe version of the main character in Washingtn's Irving's The Headless Horseman.

As for greeting the Queen, I think the protocol is that for formal dinners with royalty the guys are supposed to wear white tie and tails, at least that was what happened when she visited a few years ago, (although I'm not sure if they do it for Prime Ministers) So following the logic, that's what you need to wear at a seder, or at Shabbos dinner.

Ichabod Chrain

David said...

Its like when those girls dress under the blanket because its "untznious" to dress infront of Gd. Its like "HELLO, GD SEES YOU UNDER THERE TOO!"


Jessica said...

I'm confused why you keep mentioning the un-tucked tzitzis since I'm pretty sure it says in the shulchan aruch that you're supposed to have the tzitzis untucked...

frumskeptic said...


1) unless one is wearing a 4 cornergarment, there is no mitzvah to wear a tzitzit. these days 4 corner garments aren't exactly the height of fashion, nor have they been for hundreds of years.

2) if one purposely chooses to wear tzitzit as an extra daily mitzvah, I do respect that (really, very much not sarcastic here), but in no way should u have the bummy shlepper look if your 'greeting the president'

the shulchan aurach, from what I remember learning, does not actually say that tzitzit should be untucked, rather that they should not be tucked in such a way that they touch the skin...meaning, thereare ways that are perfectly acceptible (in accordance to halacha) to have the tzitzit tucked in. Pretty much just don't have them touch skin, wrap them or something (really I dunno, never worn

if it were a halacha to have them untucked, well then, all the business men would have issues finding jobs, no?

Honestly Frum said...

I just blogged about this. These people need to learn to mind their own business. I would not wear a worn out ripped jacket and faded black hat when I was going to visint the president. I fact I would probably sooner wear a pair of jeans. I used to get this moronic question when I lived in Brooklyn and it drove me crazy.

Honestly Frum said...

Jessica, Aruch Hashulchan says that you should not.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jewish philosopher said...

OFS, does your fiancé read this blog?

And again, is there anything about Jews you do like?

frumskeptic said...

yes, my fiance does read this blog. he enjoys it as well.

and there is a lot I like about Jews, I just dislike crazy ignorant frummies such as yourself.

jewish philosopher said...

I was looking over this blog, and this has to be about the weirdest blog I've ever read, and I do a lot of blogging.

Apparently, OFS was not religious until about age 12. Then her parents became Orthodox. OFS just never has been able to get over it. I guess she was right on cusp of enjoying sex, drugs and rock and roll and then Mom and Dad spring the Orthodox thing on her. Nine years later, she is still reeling from the shock and anger. EVERY FEW DAYS she publishes a post insulting the Orthodox community. Yet she remains Orthodox.

OFS, seriously, you have to get help. You have to resolve a lot of emotional problems before you even consider marriage. You have to reach a point where you love yourself and are happy with who you are. Seriously, think about it.

Marriage never solves any problems.

jewish philosopher said...

"there is a lot I like about Jews"

Have you ever written one post about that? I mean just something positive?

This blog is probably the most negative and hateful one on the web. I don't think Der Stürmer was more over the top nasty.ürmer

I would not believe that a Jew actually wrote it except this guy Moshe says he knows you and he identifies himself on his webpage.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

I actually admit now, my faith in Mr. Stein has begun to wane as a result of the comments here, though I kind of understand his stance, and I somewhat agree. This blog concentrates on nothing but negative aspects of Haredi-American Jewry. Now, it could be that is done only to "reveal the falsifiers" and show people that Judaism is not all that the Haredim make it seem to be.

Frum Skeptic: "before you attack my points get over your bigotry of Ashkenazy Jews"- That was a sound explanation, but no way I'm giving up my hatred! My father knew this old Sepharadic Rabbi who cures Ashkenazim on his death-bed till his soul lest him. He's my idol! ; ). Sheesh, nobody is a sport here!

Ichabod: What's to thank, I said your name means "No Honor"?!

Jessica: Shulchan Aruch 8/11.

Shulchan Aruch says "having the tzitzit over ones clothing is the 'main idea' of tzitzit". The Arizal "vehemently" argued this point though. Ashkenazim generally felt it better to wear tzitzit out, though their long coats usually covered it, while Sepharadim either did not wear it or wore it underneath (in Morocco, for example, it was almost impossible to find a Rabbi who wore tzitzit).

In regards to "Lithuanian" Ashkenazim the opinions of many of the Rabbis are not clear, though suffice it to say the idea of wearing tzitzit out is much more popular now than it ever was in Lithuanian yeshivas.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Haha, I wrote "cures" Ashkenazim. I meant "cursed"! I'm like Bil'am!

..there are a bunch of mistakes, I really gotta' start proofreading.

Lion of Zion said...

i've never understood the whole suit sans tie look that prevails among many people. this is ok? besides for looking silly, would you go before the president with a suit but no tie?

Dina said...

I honestly cannot bring myself to care about other people's attire; but, to paraphrase Dorothy Parker - you mean, their clothing is *intentional*?

jewish philosopher said...

OFS, another thought I had, is that even if you can't think of anything nice to say, how about at least spicing it up a little bit. There are plenty of other interesting minority groups around besides Orthodox Jews. In addition to crazy ignorant frummies, how about dirty, stupid niggers or greasy, ugly spics? Even the Nazis didn't just write about Jews.

I'm curious also, is this a genetic thing or a religious bigotry? Genetically I'm purely Aryan. The SS would have taken me in a second. So maybe I'm OK in your book, I don't know.

Anyway, OFS, have a good Shabbos and Sieg Heil baby!

Dina said...

JP, did you ask a rav if it's muttar to wank on the internet?

jewish philosopher said...

Do you know what "wank" means? (I also like answering questions with questions.)

Anonymous said...

Shlomo 10:25
Not sure you're right about the translation of my name. In my understanding "honor"in English has several connotations that are similar but not exactly the same as kovod. I think the Hebrew is more accurately translated as referring to external honors as opposed to an inner state of morality. If that's right Ichabod is more accurately translated as or "lacking external honors" as opposed to "no honor"

Jessica said...

"if it were a halacha to have them untucked, well then, all the business men would have issues finding jobs, no?"

No. They wouldn't. Last time I checked hiring and not hiring someone based on religious beliefs was illegal. And even if it was perfectly legal, I don't believe in changing who you are just to get a job.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- when you're looking for clients/investors, you dress your best. you make sure you're tucked in, and everything is neat.

you tuck in the tzitzit if you can't rely solely on frum clients/investors. and like I said, I heard its prefectly acceptible to have them tucked in if they don't touch ur skin. I'm sure the frummy business men (and I work with a lot of them) tuck themselves in whatever that proper way is.

THE head boss is frummy and everytime he shows up he absoultely always looks presentable, as well as the others. and I'm sure they wear tzitzit all the time.

tucking in ur tzitzit for a job doesn't change who you are, its called survival. You're allowed to bend the rules for parnassa. just like you're allowed to shave your beard for parnassa (in a kosher fashion, non-razor) I'm sure you can with the tzitzit. that's not 'changing yourself'.

maybe a potential emplyer can't refuse to hire you b/c u look like a shlepper, but youcant guarrantee a customer won't refuse your services.

NotaGeek! said...

Nice post... Thanks for the rant.. If only more people would use their common sense.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

FS: I was considering mentioning that you're making it seem that these unkempt individuals, or those that wear their tzitzit out etc act on their own accord. To my understanding the practice was unheard of among American Jews until certain Chasidic Rabbis from Europe (Rav Yoel Tetelbaum at their head), considering the concequences, decided to demand a dress code among their Chasidim in America. Any non-Chasid dressing like that is an extention and under the influence of that origional, calculated, decision. Now, I'm not saying I at all agree with it, but I am saying that those people seem to have some sort of economic flow within their own communities, and therefore are of comparitively little need of the conventional means that you, for example, employ to create an income.

Bricktop said...

Some of these comments also remind me of how ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS it is for women to cross their arms in front of them as they are naked in the mikvah, (like a temporary gartel) when saying the bracha. I mean, Doesn't God see the whole of me in the mikvah? (as at other time, but more obviously there? isn't going to the mikvah about sanctifying what's below the gartel line, as the tumah that came out of that area is removed?

Also like washing hands on the way out of the mikvah. Is this a Lubav custom or do all frummies have it? Aren't we supposed to go home with the mikvah water 'on' us as much as possible? Why wash with faucet water?

Jessica said...

I guess I just don't see a connection between untucked tzitzis and looking unkempt. You can tuck in your shirt, wear a nice suit, trim your beard and have your tzitzis sticking out and you would look fine. (Well, not YOU, but you know what I mean.)

frumskeptic said...

lol. I know what you mean. but if you're going on and on about jeans being innappropriate because of a king/president meaning, you can't say string sticking out IS appropriate. kinda doesn't work with their analogy.

also, when I think of the bearded-shlepper look, or whatever I called it, I wasn't referring to the guys who just wear nice suits, and have a few strings sticking out (I don't particularly care forit tho) but I'm talking about how the whole package is gross. huge/stained suit, extra large shirt, not just the strings but the cloth tzitzi is attached to stinking out as well. its nasty. and it most definitly is not a way to greet anyone u respect.

the strings should be tucked in anyway, cuz they just look like a bathroom accident. but I can def see ur point (not agree with you tho) on how the tzitzit don't look so bad with a suit that is nice and actually fits.

Katie said...

Happy March 8!!

jewish philosopher said...

"The only positive to the shlepper look, is that it further proves that frum people are full of crap."

The only positive to the frizzy hair look, is that it further proves that black people are full of crap.

The only positive to the greasy hair look, is that it further proves that Hispanic people are full of crap.

The only positive to the body piercing and tattoo look, is that it further proves that young white people are full of crap.

The only positive to the [insert something] look, is that it further proves that [insert something] people are full of crap.

Anonymous said...

Well getting back to the unkempt beard theory, here's something from R' Harry Maryles's blog:

" Non Chasidic young men in Charedi Yeshivos then were not even allowed to grow beards and Peyos. They were told to shave them off if they tried. Young Charedi Yeshiva students in pre-Holocaust European Yeshivos like Mir and Ponevitch were quite dapper- in fact. I’ve seen the pictures. No card carrying Yeshiva Bachur would dare look like that today.

Some Gedolim of that era were clean shaven too. The founder of the very Charedi Yeshiva, Beis HaTalmud was R’ Leib Malin. He was clean shaven until relatively late in his life. And there are photos of a young and clean shaven Rav Gedalia Shorr as well."

Ichabod Chrain

Moshe said...

CRAP! My gmail was sending everything to spam for some reason and I missed everything after my last post!

I think after going through all of Jake the Snake's comments, google's filter decided it's spam. Curse you Jake the Snake for messing up my email!!!

Listen, Jake, I've been in touch with your psychiatrist and he says you should up the anti-psychotics dosage because obviously the current one's not working.

Nikki Flores said...

ROTFLMAO at all of these comments! A couple of things:

1. OFS: Thank you SO much for writing this post. This is something my husband and I have been saying for a VERY long time. It's unfortunate, but most frummies look very disheveled all the time, even though they're wearing the traditional "Jewish garb." My husband always gets ten million comments when he decides to wear nice jeans with his button down shirt instead of black pants. It drives him nuts!

2. I can't believe JP found his way over to this blog. He's such a miserable, bored man who pretends to know everything about everything and rile people up with his ridiculous antics.

3. Keep the comments coming on this one!

Avi said...

I did have what to say when I initially read your post, but after skimming through all of the comments I realized anything I said would probably be, at worst, redundant, and at best, ineffectual. I kind of agree and kind of don't agree.

But I will say this. To everyone who called other commenter's names, assumed things about their backgrounds, etc. etc, please just stop. Honestly, regardless of how silly a post seems to you, or how much a person 'hates' frummies, you aren't accomplishing anything by insulting them! On the contrary, you're debasing you're own validity! (Short story to emphasize the point. A few years ago, one shabbos, I was talking during Chazaras Ha'shatz. After davening one of the gabbaim came over to me and told me off, quoting the Shulchan Aruch's famous line 'talking during Chazaras Ha'shatz is more than a person's shoulder could bear.' {That was from memory, so probably not verbatim.} He then added that I wasn't a very strong guy so I'd better shut up. Until that last jab I was more than willing to accept the mussar. Instead, he completely destroyed any credibility to anything he had said, and anything he would in the future say, with that one-liner. All of you {most of you} are doing the same!) Rather then rationally answering the points that OFS brings up, many of you immediately resort to smear her with rude adjectives or an inaccurate assessment of her background. And then of course there are those who have to respond to the 'insulter' in the same manner. Sure, she's a skeptic, and as I said, I kind of agree with what she's saying and kind of don't. But can't you keep it levelheaded? Discuss intelligently instead of in an infantile manner. If you do have a valid argument, point, or counter-point that might change someone's mind about something, then say it in a way that he/she won't be in a defensive position before he/she reads it. You're just wasting everyone's time with your insults, so stop!!

*sighs* Then again, going back to my first paragraph, anything I say will have no effect anyway, but I figure it's worth a shot. It's less of a waste of time than insulting someone.