Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Public School

In HS I learned that to be frum it means that one keep three specific mitzvohs



1- kashrus

2- shabbos

3- teharas hamishpacha



and that is all it takes.



Recently at work I had a conversation with a frummy about pesach seders. One guy mentioned how he is willing to listen to his children's divrei Torah, because since he pays so much for tuition, he feels he's owed the pages of "wisdom." The other guy, who has a young child (not yet of school age) said "HA, I'm so not into these seders, I'm going to send the kid to public school, why waste money on tuition?"



Granted the guy was just talking (after-all he is a frummy), but seriously, what would be wrong if he actually MEANT it?



Now is a time of economic difficulty. A lot of the main idiots who've been willing to be relied on for so long have lost all their money, and the tuition payers are either losing their jobs, or cutting back on expenses (which leaves little for donations to the schools). So, why NOT send the kids to public school?



Think about it:



cost of yeshiva for the many children that shoulda been avoided by the KOSHER pill- ALOT of $$$

cost of public school and then a rebbe tutor as an "after school activity" - WAY less.



Now, the problem with public school is the environment.



Assuming a person with half a brain doesn't really want their kid in a frummy environment, I've got an idea.



1- public schools (for elementary) are mostly based on zoning. So, since all frummies pretty much live on-top of each other, if they all send their kid to the local public school, they'd have the perfect mix. They'd have a lot of frummies YET they'd also have enough diversity to prevent either extreme from causing the kids to go to either extreme (kollel or druggy).



2- Public school is FREEEEEEE, and has better education than the average frummy school.



3- our OTD rate is kinda high, so really, how much worse could it be if we send our kids to Public School? Heck, the parents may actually be FORCED to parent if they do so. (hahaa, imagine parents NOT relying on the rebbeim for discipline and education, whatever will they do?)



hahahahahahha....frum parent's actually parenting and not relying on the mechanchim of the schools...hahahhahahhaa...the frum kids will end up undernurished and completely dysfunctional...hahaha...oh wait...they already are.

36 comments:

Jessica said...

It's not quite that simple. I remember the year before I was switched to a Jewish day school my family was keeping pretty much all the basic mitzvos. I missed a lot of school for the yom tovim (rosh hashana, yom kippur, sukkos, pesach and shavuos). Even if frum people started sending their kids to public school they wouldn't make up a large enough population to actually make those days school holidays.
Having their Judaic studies be an after school activity? Don't get me wrong, secular studies are very important, but I don't believe that they are MORE important than the Judaic studies. Only one (maybe two) hours a day of learning about our religion is going to leave a whole generation of orthodox Jews with even less Jewish education than they're already receiving. I don't want my children to know less than I do, I want them to know more.

David said...

I think it's a good idea, and, frankly, I wish it were an option (my wife wouldn't go for it, I suspect). I disagree with Jessica's comment for two reasons: 1) I think secular studies are more important than most of the frummy stuff; and
2) a few hours a week of religious instruction is more than enough for anyone. I want my children to grow up as ethical, educated human beings, not walking encyclopaedias of chumras and religious bigotry.

mlevin said...

Jessica - although Jewish education is important the great majority of what is taught in Yishivahs is not important to be a Jew. One does not need to know all 24 opinions of why it says ... instead of ... However, it is important to be able to earn a support for your family. In order to provide this support you need to have a well rounded secular education, without it, you will raise your family in poverty.

Second, in a densely populated Jewish neighborhoods such as BoroPark or Lakewood there would be enough Jewish children in PS to be noticed when there are Jewish holidays, so Board of Ed would be forced to do something about it.

Once on a summer vacation I was talking to a mother from Georgia. She lived in a highly baptist area and her children went to PS. (Not Jewish) Since Baptists are not allowed to dance until they are married, the PS sponsored dances such as Prom and Home coming were virtually banned. So, in Jewish areas you would have a similar effect on PS if they had sent their children there.

Jessica said...

As I've said before, NY is not the center of the universe. Maybe in NY Jewish schools they only teach chumros and there would be enough students to make a change, but it's not that way in a majority of the places outside of NY. I completely disagree with both of you that secular studies are more important. A few hours a week is not enough. If it were then all those conservative and reform kids who went to Hebrew school after their regular school would be just as religious as the orthodox kids. By having it only as an after school activity it's teaching the kids that being Jewish isn't as important as anything else they would teach you in public school. You're all so focused on what the frummies are doing and what they should do, yet none of you actually subscribe to their way of thinking. Send your kid to a modern orthodox school if you don't like what the frummie yeshivahs are teaching. Send them to out of town Jewish schools if you don't like the education their getting in the NY Jewish schools. Public school though should be a last resort.

mlevin said...

Jessica - the reason that it doesn't work for reform and conservatives is not hebrew school education, it's the home attitude towards religion. My daughter had friends in Hebrew schools who claimed to be observant and kosher, yet they went to dancing school on shabbos and ate shrimp and lobsters and chinese buffets. So, what do you think the message these kids got from their families? Learn whatever in Hebrew school and do whatever you want outside of it.

On the flip side if an orthodox child goes to PS and his parents are truly religious, then these children will grow up to be proud observant Jews.

My ex-boss's grandson is a vegetarian. He went to PS. When they had I am special time in school, he gave a whole speach of how he is special because he doesn't eat meat and etc. He is proud of what he is. What makes you think that Orthodox Jews in PS would not grow up to be proud of what they are in PS?

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- In Brooklyn the PS's already have rosh hoshana, yom kippur and pesach off. The only difference would be adding shavous and sukkos. If there will be even a few more Jews, they will take it off. I can definitly see how from your perspective it would be an issue, considering you're kinda far from brooklyn, but my point here is general. But even generally, if enogh frummies are in a school, even if the school doesn't close, they'd have to excuse the absenses and have it convenient to make up the classes. Which really shouldn't be a problem, considering I remember in PS when there were days for testing (gifted programs etc), they used to just give the other kids in class a movie to watch or one of those self-paced type assignments.

"By having it only as an after school activity it's teaching the kids that being Jewish isn't as important as anything else they would teach you in public school."

No, its teaching kids that money doesn't grow on trees, and that rich people can't always support everyone else, because recessions happen. Its a part of life. The problem with socialism (and the frum community IS socialist in the way we live) is that eventually the government (in our case the yeshivos that control) run out of other people's money.

This is exactly whats going on. THey spend fortunes building, and relying on the rich. Now the rich have less money, and the yeshivos have no way to make ends meet, becuase THEY never considered actually treating their schools like businesses not tax-shelters.

"Send your kid to a modern orthodox school if you don't like what the frummie yeshivahs are teaching. "

MO schools are full of crap as well. Out of town schools dont have education in secular subjects that compares as well (usually, cause NY atleast has regents standards-which unfortunately are dumbing down). Not only that, but how is it cheaper to go out of town? You'll either have to pay for boarding (which frummies may like cuz they once again won't have to actually parent) or if you love your kid, you wont SEE THEM! (whcih is why i think sunday school is the root of all evil)

"Public school though should be a last resort."

I certainly don't think it should be the new "in" thing to do, but if people don't have money (and some of the richest schools are now behind on pay roll), it should definitly not be a factor so easily dismissed. This way, the schools will be able to restructure (by only having tuition payers and less on scholarship), and then everything will even out.

frumskeptic said...

"What makes you think that Orthodox Jews in PS would not grow up to be proud of what they are in PS?"

mlevin- you miss a point.

OJ are not proud of anything. THey do kiruv becuase its self-validation. Or else why would they care so much what the outside world's divorce rate is?


Jessica- There was one year that the PS system for whatever reason decided to keep school open on pesach. My mom took off from work, and took me and my friend out for lunch so that it wouldn't be hard for us to be in the cafeteria. We felt SOOO special.

Aside from that, I had A LOT of non-religious friends growing up as a kid, (i always kept pesach), and i had two friends whose bdays almost always fell on pesach. I had to be the only kid at their parties eating tuna salad and potato chips, with my own soda or water bottle, while all the kids sat and had PIZZA around me. I gained self-esteem and independence and pride in tradition and family values. It wasn't easy as a 7,8,9 or 10 yr old kid to have tuna over pizza. But i never even tried to have any chometz, cuz I knew better.

ANd I was in PS 'till HS.

Kids will be fine if they have the right parents. It won't be the PS that makes the kid try to have the pizza, itll be either bad parenting or personal disinterest, which I'm sorry to point out, not everyone is meant to be frum, no matter how they were born.

Jessica said...

FS: I'm in a rush so I'll respond to everything else after yom tov, but one thing I need to respond to now; "Out of town schools dont have education in secular subjects that compares as well (usually, cause NY atleast has regents standards-which unfortunately are dumbing down)."
What makes you think that? In Ohio there are the Proficiencies (which are not being dumbed down)... as far as I know, all of my "out of town" friends who are not from the state of Ohio also have something similar. Secular education in out of town schools is definitely not sub-par. And considering the fact that I've heard of several people from NY not actually know where the state of Ohio is on the map or they think that the 's' in Illinois is not silent, makes me wonder where you got the idea that out of town secular education is worse than that of NY schools.

Moshe said...

GRRR...
Shlomik's 3...
Stop bringing up the subject of school, I have enough reasons to become an alcoholic, thank you very much.

I was in PS in 6th grade, Bensonhurst, it was pretty normal and food was awesome and free food during summer, not kosher though.

Child Ish Behavior said...

In theory you may be right. And on paper it sounds like a great idea. But I bet you, you will end up sending your kids to a private school. At the end of the day the public school is a form of social indoctrination into how to be a good american citizen, and a yeshiva education is indoctrination on how to be a good jew, it is never purely "education", and so when it comes down to it yeshiva wins.

Jessica said...

Now that the yom tov is over, I can finish my reply. Well, more like state something new, then reply. [1] If all of these frum kids are suddenly put into the public school system taxes are going to sky-rocket in the frum areas. Public schools are already having issues. Now the tax payers will need to pay extra to make sure there is enough room for these students, transportation for these students, etc. [2] You have complained in the past about kollel people leaching off of the government. If the frum students switch to public school there will be no need for Jewish day schools. All the teachers, principals, janitors, lunch-ladies, etc will be out of a job and on unemployment (and the ones with kollel husbands will be on welfare too). By solving one financial crisis, you've just created another.
Okay, now onto my replies:
mlevin: "What makes you think that Orthodox Jews in PS would not grow up to be proud of what they are in PS?" I never said that. Pride and knowledge are two different things.

FS: Even kids with amazing parents can end up as less than amazing people. Kids are kids. A majority of them want to be liked by their peers. We can't expect all of these frum kids to be as strong as you.

frumskeptic said...

"Secular education in out of town schools is definitely not sub-par. "

Jessica, NYC PS's are run completely different than any other type of school in the country (that I know off). YOu start out in your zoned elementary school (K-5) and then you APPLY to JHS and then to HS, becuase you most probably don't want to go to your zoned school. What's my point in telling you this? My point is, in order to get into a decent JHS a kid has to get really good grades, and/or pass a really hard entrance exam. Then when it comes time for HS, NYC has 3 of the best ranked HS's in the country, that are only open to NYC residents. Which means, that from K-8 grades, kids are learning logic/math and reading comprehension in order to get into one of those three schools (Stuyvesant HS, Bronx Science and Hunter HS). in ONE city alone, we hold 3 spots. Colleges know of those three schools because they happen to lead on SAT's.

Now, you think kids who worked hard their entire lives will settle for a crappy school just because they didn't get into one of those three (not as smart, or just a bad test-taker)- no way in hell!! There are HS's throughout NY who try to constantly compete with those schools (also have high standards for admissions but not as high)

But yes, we sure we have alot of crappy education schools with awful crime rates. But atleast NY smart kids don't have to be stuck in the same programs with the NY dumb kids, which automatically improves education, because its more class-paced than curriculum based.

When I wrote the post, I was assuming frum parents would have enough seichal to have their kids apply to decent schools. If not, your average school out-of-town probably is better. BUt I dont believe in settling for average. I mean with all the crap these parents go through to get their kid to get into a yeshiva (dress right, speak right, no TV, no net), I can't imagine they wouldn't go out of their way to help their kid get into the right PS.

"And considering the fact that I've heard of several people from NY not actually know where the state of Ohio is on the map or they think that the 's' in Illinois is not silent, makes me wonder where you got the idea that out of town secular education is worse than that of NY schools."

But kids in NY probably know more about where Pakistan is on a map, or where Kenya is, or China, or Russia. After all, NY's public school system represents ALOT of different nations in the student-body as well as the staff. In my elementary school we had our morning announcements in a different language and in english everyday, to bring "awareness". NOt that I'm saying its better. But you can find an idiot no matter where you are. I'm sure there are plenty in Ohio who don't know where NY is on a map as well.

frumskeptic said...

[1] Nope. NYC public schools aren't run on Property tax like the schools in other city's or towns. NY has one main budget and they pull money from everywhere. So if taxes go up because of a major influx of frummies into the PS system, it will universally go up all around NYC, and will not "sky-rocket" because it will be balanced around ALL NY residents, not just exclusively in the frum neighborhoods. And the few extra dollars the frummies will feel removed in taxes, will definitly NOT exceed the cost of tuition. Oh, and transportation to and from schools (yeshiva's) is already provided by NY state. so the taxes will not go up for that at all. And the secular subject books are provided by the state as well as well as free lunch and probably if I think about it more things.

"[2] Jessica, there will ALWAYS be a need for Jewish day schools. Plenty of people can afford tuition and aren't on scholarship. Infact, if you weed out all the leechers of the scholarship system, tuition will go down by far, becuase they won't need to subsidize anyone. Plus all those people who will suddenly go on welfare, are probably already on it. How do you think a woman of 5 is able to support the family on a teachers salary which may possibly go as high as $30,000/yr (depends on the subject and how often she teaches)? Hate to break it to you, she's already on welfare, and on section 8 and has medicare. If she's teaching a secular subject and making a tad bit more, she isn't going to be unmarketable. They'll need her in the PS. If the dont want to hire her, then she was just an awful teacher and its a good thing she lost her job.

"Even kids with amazing parents can end up as less than amazing people. Kids are kids. A majority of them want to be liked by their peers. We can't expect all of these frum kids to be as strong as you."

Survival of the fittest. Firm believer.So I'm sorry. but if a little kid stops being frum due to "peer pressure", I would like him to not pass down his weak genes into my community...rather he leave.

frumskeptic said...

child ish-

"But I bet you, you will end up sending your kids to a private school. "

Ahh, but I don't believe in having children you cannot afford. So, If for whatever reason I happen to run out of funds, I'll make it my business to make it worthwhile for the yeshiva to keep my kid.

OR, I'll homeschool.

"At the end of the day the public school is a form of social indoctrination into how to be a good american citizen, and a yeshiva education is indoctrination on how to be a good jew, it is never purely "education", and so when it comes down to it yeshiva wins."

Yes, but the yeshiva day is sooooooooooooo much longer. More time to mess with your kids head.

Jessica said...

"weak genes"... seriously? Because a kid acts like a kid he's weak? I'm sorry, but your expectations of human beings are way too high. We are not perfect. NONE OF US. Even the ones who get good grades and go to those 3 high schools that you mentioned. Being smart and being unnecessarily mature for your age are definitely not synonymous.

And those three schools you mentioned... I thought all frummies were morons so how would any of them even be able to get into those schools?

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- I'd say you have a point if you were talkng about just ONE kid ina public school. If you have a significant amount of frum kids in the public schools, there should be no reason why they would have an peer pressure to not be frum.

Yes, plenty of frummies are morons. They may not get into the best schoools, but atleast they'd be taught to view education as a necessity and learn to be competitive. Becuase they probably will get into decent enough schools anyway. As stupd as they may be, they do have a lot of potential.

frumskeptic said...

as ignorant* as they may be...

Anonymous said...

cost of yeshiva for the many children that shoulda been avoided by the KOSHER pill- ALOT of $$$

------------
There are a small handful of cases where the pill should have been used by Jewish mothers. You are one of them.

You disgust me.

On the other hand Hitler would agree with you. Celebrate his birthday tomorrow with the rest of his ilk.

Jessica said...

But if it's not set up by zone there's no guarantee that all the frum kids would be together. Orthodox Jews make up a very small portion of the population. Then taking into account what you said about some of them still being able to afford Jewish day school brings it down even lower. And based on how many different public schools there are in NYC it's more likely that there would be very few orthodox kids at each school.

Anon - Grow up. People are allowed to have differing opinions.

Anonymous said...

Mein Kampf had similar "differing opinions" when it came to Jewish procreativity. So did Pharaoh.

Only an anti-semite, Jewish or otherwise, would speak of Jewish children who should not have been born.

Jessica said...

Anon - Isn't that exactly what you did? If you don't like her opinions, then don't read her blog.

Anonymous said...

I said that there are a very few cases of such children and any fool could see in any case that I meant it rhetorically.

and just as many people don't stay silent when it comes to islamic or neo-nazi blogs i wont stay silent when it comes to this sonah Yisroel.

frumskeptic said...

Anonymous-
Don't be an ass, only comment if you have the nerve to sign some sort of name to give yourself a persona.

"There are a small handful of cases where the pill should have been used by Jewish mothers."

You mean the ones who are sitting on charity and feel the world owes them a living?

"You are one of them. "

Yes, however would the frum world survive if people like me, who were raised by people with jobs, improve the lifestyle of the Jews? Oh yes, the Jew world would be a good place if we had more jews with NO money reproducing. Because the day the NYTimes finds out about Kollel youngermen taking advantage of gov't programs, it totally will NOT be a chillul Hashem.

But you know, maybe you have a point. If fewer people who could afford to reproduce actually do so, then those people would need less to spend on themselves, and they'd end up giving away a lot to the leeches in society who don't actually have any skills to support themselves.

Good point. Because we all know how the RamBam felt about people choosing to live on charity when they're perfectly able-bodied to support themselves...

"Mein Kampf had similar "differing opinions" when it came to Jewish procreativity. So did Pharaoh."

You're an idiot. THe mitzvah is fulfilled with one boy and one girl, or 3 boys. I wouldn't talk about those kids, because I firmly believe everyone who wants to should have kids. But taking advantage of the system to have more kids than that, is just thievery. If you read the Yated and you hear about the "parnassa crisis" and you see these buffoons having 9 kids, who are putting themselves into crazy amounts of debt, I'm sorry, I have to be a bit weary. BUt ofcourse, you think that my concern for our future is equivalent to sending people to gas chambers or throwing new born baby boys into the rivers to drown, or using them to make pyramids. Yea...I can totally see the comparison.

"Only an anti-semite, Jewish or otherwise, would speak of Jewish children who should not have been born."

Oh, and you totally DIDN"T just do the same thing.

Get a life, and stop reading blogs only to offend the writer. Or go and reproduce and write letters to the Yated about how you can't afford to reproduce even though you do it anyway and how everyone who can should give you more money.

"I meant it rhetorically"

Yea, ok. ANd so you don't think you took me a tad to literally when you compared me to Hitler? I mean, really. Did I say these women shoulda had abortions or thrown their kids in gas chambers. They're already born.

Stop reading my blog if you don't like it.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- "But if it's not set up by zone there's no guarantee that all the frum kids would be together. Orthodox Jews make up a very small portion of the population."

You make a very good point right there. So I thought about it just now, and I have like 3 ideas.
1- SEnd the kids to PS only for the time they'll be in the zoned areas. like K-5. Because if you think about it, whats more worth it, paying $10,000 for a first grader, or $12,000 for a 6th? Even though the 6th is more, atleast you do something other than arts and crafts for the majority of the 6th grade. It would be harder to get the right hebrew tutor for the PS 6th+ grader.

2- SEnd the kids to ONLY Public HS's. BY HS more kids are secure with their lifestyle. And, they'll have some sort of organization started which shows #'s of how many kids got into which HS's so that the parents know which HS would be best to send their kids based on how many frummies are going.

3- Just have the organization from # 2 but add JHS's for that, this way the same people from #1 can continue sending their kids to PS even after K-5 and such.

But yea...that was a very good point.

Jessica said...

1-Kids need a foundation to be built up in things other than their Hebrew skills. If it was just that then the whole tutoring after school thing would be a great idea.
2- " BY HS more kids are secure with their lifestyle." HS is usually when kids start to rebel, not to mention all the new hormones.

frumskeptic said...

1) a "foundation" is living the life, Walking the walk, not just talking it. IF the kid comes home to a kosher, shomer shabbos household, he has the foundation.

He'll have shul as well as his tutor teaching him all the stories in the chumash and navi. His father will learn and whatever. Its not like school is the thing that makes people frum. If it were, there'd be no way to explain BT's at all. Cuz I was very much pushed to become frum due to one of my classes in 8th grade.

2) In the good "old" days (about 40 yrs ago) there were very few yeshiva HS's in NY. Many of the people went to a day school up until HS. For HS they went to PS. it was the normal thing to do. I don't think today's teens are hornier. Sorry. And if they are, you suggest single-gendered frummy colleges, such as Touro? Cuz really, there isn't much of a difference btwn the 17-18 yr old, but one is still in HS.

Even if they are hornier, you did suggest earlier in one of your comments to send to the modern schools if we're fed up with chumras...modern schools are often co-ed. You worry about hormones there too?

And about the rebellion, what makes you so sure that nobody rebels in yeshiva? Why is it that ONLY the PS can have a negative effect. THe OTD rate is super high.
maybe with a tutor we'd actually have individualized attention to give to the kids, to actually prevent that.

What could be better?

I'm kinda liking the concept of starting an organization that will track where frum kids go to PS.

Jessica said...

1. I meant a foundation in how to learn, not how to be a frum Jew. Of course parents are the ones who raise their kids to be frum, but when it comes to teaching the basics of chumash, navi, gemara, etc there is only so much time in the day. Parents should quit their jobs to teach their children when there are schools already set up for that?

2. Things aren't like they were 40 years ago. This society is much more sexually driven than it used to be. Even if kids are as horny today as they were back then, they're given more allowance to act on it today.

I have no idea why you're bringing up colleges... most frum kids go off to Israel for a year and the difference between a 17 year old and a 19 year old is significant.

I never said that no one rebels in yeshiva. I said that teenagers rebel, I did not specify where in life they needed to be. In public school you're allowed to be whomever you choose to be, whereas in a yeshiva you have a set way to be. Given those liberties in public school that rebellion is more likely to come out.
And where do you think all these tutors will be coming from? They're going to be those yeshivish teachers you dislike so much.

mlevin said...

"Things aren't like they were 40 years ago. This society is much more sexually driven than it used to be."

Haven't you heard about sexual revolution of the 60s? Free love and all that? US is not as promiscuous now as it was than. Yes, granted we have more stuff on TV today, but in the 60s it was all over and it was encouraged. Today's youth (not frummies) is tough to respect your elders, the motto of the 60s was "don't trust anyone over 30".

"I never said that no one rebels in yeshiva. I said that teenagers rebel, I did not specify where in life they needed to be. In public school you're allowed to be whomever you choose to be, whereas in a yeshiva you have a set way to be. Given those liberties in public school that rebellion is more likely to come out."

I heard recently that off-the-derech rate is 30%. Do you really think it would be worse in PS? We are talking about every third FFB walks away from everything they are taught since birth and become secular.

"And where do you think all these tutors will be coming from? They're going to be those yeshivish teachers you dislike so much."

FS never said to close all yeshivahs, she is suggesting an alternative to those who are struggling and can't afford a tuition. She is pointing out that PS is not some evil pit, but simply an educational institution.

"... but when it comes to teaching the basics of chumash, navi, gemara, etc there is only so much time in the day."

Basics of Chumash, navi and gemara are picked up during simple family conversations. While peeling potatoes a mother could be relating a story about David, or while cleaning a room and noticing a sunset a father could be telling his son what Hillel did with the Jewish calendar. I understand that would require an actual interaction between children and parents, but one must sacrifice in this economic crisis.

Jessica said...

mlevin: "She is pointing out that PS is not some evil pit, but simply an educational institution." No... she's saying that public school is a better option than a Jewish day school.

"Basics of Chumash, navi and gemara are picked up during simple family conversations. While peeling potatoes a mother could be relating a story about David, or while cleaning a room and noticing a sunset a father could be telling his son what Hillel did with the Jewish calendar. I understand that would require an actual interaction between children and parents, but one must sacrifice in this economic crisis."
I wasn't referring to the stories, I was referring to how to learn the stories from the hebrew chumash, hebrew navi, etc. That requires more skill than you can learn from just a conversation.

Jessica said...

FS: "I was very much pushed to become frum due to one of my classes in 8th grade."
If you were "pushed" to become frum from a class, what makes you think a class won't push these kids to go off the derech?

mlevin said...

Jessica - they learn stories and songs in the elementary grades and kindergarden. It costs about $8,000 to send a child to a yeshivah kindergarden where they basically sing and draw all day long. One can send children to PS and teach them same songs. And oh, yeah, they also learn an aleph beth. That's a very significant savings.

"No... she's saying that public school is a better option than a Jewish day school."

I just reread this post and comments. She was saying that PS is better than living on credit. She has no problem with Yeshivah education if parents can afford it. As a matter or fact she wrote the following on April 14 2:54

"I certainly don't think it should be the new "in" thing to do, but if people don't have money (and some of the richest schools are now behind on pay roll), it should definitly not be a factor so easily dismissed. This way, the schools will be able to restructure (by only having tuition payers and less on scholarship), and then everything will even out."

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- “Parents should quit their jobs to teach their children when there are schools already set up for that?”

What?! Did I imply that or something. That is not at all what I’m saying. If the kid is in PS, and then gets a personal teacher for the rest of the day (whatever the allocated amount of time for these subjects will be), they will learn their stuff. The parents are the ones that determine if the kid puts the knowledge to use, or just crams it all in, takes a test, and then forgets it.

It’s a lifestyle. The child looks at what is going on in the home. School is a place they acquire information, its not a place they learn to live. Yeshiva’s tend to think they’re a parenting body, which is just wrong. If the parents just treat it as information, that’s all it will be to the kid, whether in a yeshiva or a PS. They have to lead by example.

“Even if kids are as horny today as they were back then, they're given more allowance to act on it today.”

as Mlevin put it, the 60’s had the sexual revolution. We’re WAAAY better now. Then people were more promiscuous than they are now. Now it is more common to have one sexual partner at a time, where as then… free-love (remember, they were largely liberal). Sure, the only reason this promiscuity stopped was because of AIDs discovery in the 80’s, but still. The differences are miniscule.

“most frum kids go off to Israel for a year and the difference between a 17 year old and a 19 year old is significant.”

Men reach their sexual peak at 18. There really is no difference btwn the 17 and 19 year old horny guy. If he lacks in common sense, he’ll screw in Israel before he makes it to college. Israeli female soldiers don’t have the best rep’s ya know. And he’ll find time to make it out of his single-gendered housing utility. There is also the psychology behind it, if you have access to it, its not as enticing… The yeshiva grants no access, ever.

“Given those liberties in public school that rebellion is more likely to come out.”

Really? I find that most people rebel because they are expected to be in a certain way, not because they actually have a choice. Why would they rebel against a freedom. They learn in PS – “be anything you want”, and they come home and they see that their parents chose to be “frum” and they love their tradition. Same kid goes to yeshiva, the rebbe says “be a, x, y or Gd will cry.” Then he comes home, and he wants to relax, he turns the TV on, and his mom comes in, yells at him, because “Moshe from shul is coming, HIDE THE TV!” Hmm…I wonder what will get the kid to rebel.

“If you were "pushed" to become frum from a class, what makes you think a class won't push these kids to go off the derech?”

a factor in my becoming frum was my History teacher in 8th grade read an excerpt from “The Jungle” by Upton Sinclair. Most of my friends became vegetarians. I was like “I like meat, I’ll go kosher.” I came home, I said “mama, papa you see this meat in the freezer? I’m not eating it. I’m only eating kosher from now on.”

Now, that is what “pushed it”. But you see, I already had the education I knew what kosher was, I had a Rabbi to consult, and I already attended classes. IN the mean time, my parents could’ve treated this as a phase, and eventually I woulda went back to treif (as my friends became carnivores again), but they didn’t, because they were like “you know what, we should be frum.”

Even if there is a class that makes a 13 year old frum kid try and do something, when he comes home, opens the freezer, removes burger meat then goes for the cheese… his parents will be there to stop him and let it phase out by allowing him to maybe do something less offensive, like wait “only” 3 hours. Its not the end of the world.

Jessica said...

FS: Half of the time that a kid is awake they're in school. Like I've said before, parents should be the biggest influence, but fact is they're often times not.

As for the 60's being so much worse... there may have been a sexual revolution there (that mostly effected those of a Woodstock-nature, not those who were "normal"), but back then you couldn't get away with all the sexual innuendos (and some sexual things without the innuendos) in tv, music and movies.

Whether you're willing to admit it or not, you know that sending a bunch of frum kids into public school would change them and probably not for the better. If they don't get into those 3 top schools that you mentioned, they'll be screwed no matter who their parents are.

Now that I'm brought back to those 3 schools though, I did a search and found that only one of the schools you mentioned was even in the top 25 best high schools in the US. Stuyvesant HS is number 23 according to US News and World Report. (http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2008/12/04/best-high-schools-gold-medal-list.html).

Fact is, by sending a frum kid to public school you're telling them that money is more important than learning about Judaism. A couple hours a day after school is not enough.

I officially cannot repeat myself anymore. We keep going in circles even though you had already said that what I said makes sense. If you really want to risk your future children's frumkeit, that's your prerogative, but I am not going to risk mine.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- I read at somepoint last yr that those three schools were on top in the nation. Ill look for the article when I get home.

but either way u missed my point in mentioning those three schools. even if people don't get into them, since there is so much competition there are other schools that may not be on par, but are still good that those kids will end up. and those schools will have either better or equal eduaction to the few good frum schools. in the meantime those kids in the PS will be experiencing what real life is about, not just a sheltered existence.

and I'm sorry, but I also believe that frumkeit is more important than money, but I don't believe that living on charity is an acceptible thing to do, and I was offering another option. and I don't believe that my belief that my childs frumkeit is more important is more important than a rightfully owed parnassa that our yeshuva teachers aren't getting (due to yeshivas being behing on payroll). our teachers deserve to get paid. andunless options are presented with a more open mind, our system is gonna sink lower than it already has, because the few good teachers will leave and potential new good teachers will seek employment elsewhere.

In the meantime you're pointing to unproven theories about what will or will not happen if a group of frum kids enter a public school. as I've said, u had a point about these kids later being separated after the zoning ends in 5th grade, and I tried to address that by suggesting either starting a program to track where the kids go to see which option is best, or altogether only leaving the PS option solely for the K-5 grades, which are zoned.

I think that this is something that should be looked into. and with good thogut behind it, maybe the issuewill work (we can maybe look into charter schools for the yeshivas like they tried to do in Florida) or maybe it won't. but your reaction to this whole thing is very much emotional and not practical. if we don't find a solution jews are ultimately screwed edu wise.

frumskeptic said...

what I meant by 'what reallife is about' I meant that they'll recognize that there is competition in the real world, and diversity. not a lifestyle.

frumskeptic said...

oh, and if we're screwed edu wise, then that will be bad for Jewish future, exactly as bad as you claim PSwill be.