Monday, October 27, 2008

Opening the door

My kiruv program in HS had some of the most entertaining teachers ever. We had one teacher who literally spoke about sex ALL the time. She made class so much fun.

She taught us all about teharas hamishpacha, as well as all about what we should and should not do/wear on a date. She also told us all about what we should and should not look for in a guy.

Well, anyway, I'll share some stuff:

So this teacher was a psych. major in college. She told us that males are one-track minded. All they think about is sex/nudity and all that encompasses. She constantly told us that "guys fall in love with what they see, and girls with what they hear" and so she told us how her husband wasn't the best looking but was "good-enough" for her. Her point was, was that, us girls should dress to entice on our dates; she told us that we should wear button-down shirts on our first date. So we were all like "what, why?" And she said "so that he can imagine unbuttoning them."

Honestly, I remember laughing, and immediately telling my super frummy friend the minute I had the opportunity. She practically vowed to never wear a button down shirt again (outside of school), which was really funny.

A few weeks later, I was at my cousin's house (guys) who live 2-blocks from my HS. They were telling me how they see the girls from my HS pass by every day, and how "dumb and annoying" they look with "those stupid uniforms". I was like "yea well, our uniforms suck." And the conversation ended. My cousins were playing some sort of video game, and were in complete silence. Then one looked at the other, and was like "imagine how hot they are under those things though."

I was like "WTF?" And I shared that story with that teacher a few days later, to which she said "you see, guys use their imaginations!"

I couldn't believe that. It was a total shock that guys were that "bad."

Anyway, another time she was telling us about how she met her husband.

She had this thing that she wouldn't date a guy who did not open the door for her. She said that if a guy wasn't respectful enough to open the door, he wasn't worth her time. And so, what do you know, she finds herself on a date with a guy whom she really liked, and lo and behold - he did not open the door for her. Since she really liked him there was a dilemma.

So she asked him "why didn't you open the door, don't you know its not just protocol its also a sign of respect?"

To which he answered "it isn't respectful for the guy to open the door for a girl, it is infact untznius."

My teacher bought the answer and went out with him again, and now they are married with children.


I find this super amusing. At first the teacher told us how we should dress to get his imagination running, and then told us that if he opens the door, it is untznuis. And it must be a big thing, because my stalker asked me if I minded that he opened the door even though some say it's untznius.

Who cares? He's going to check you out. As long as he isn't giving you one of those disgusting looks, does it matter that he's looking? Do you want to end up with a guy who after marraige realizes he isn't attracted to you?


EsPes said...

very funny post!

of course guys are one track minded and can link just about anything to sex. how could u have ever thought otherwise?! ;-P

the worst is going bowling on a date. besides for it being the worst date activity ever, u just KNOW hes checking u out from behind every time u go up to bowl.

frumskeptic said...

I was told, by my mom's goyish coworker, that I shouldn't agree to a date playing pool/billiards; she explained that when u lean over, he'll be checking out your rack, to which I responded "but us Jewish girls wear shirts that prevent cleavage from showing"
and she was like "doesn't matter, he'll leave it to the imagination."

And I was like "OY!"

But i went on my share of pool dates. lol.

There really is nothing left "tznius" to do on a date. lol.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

About the door thing: I wondered about that myself, being that I once upset a girl for not doing it- at the time I thought maybe she was so religious that if I opened the door for her it would look like I'm just doing it to get to walk behind her so I can check out her.. ..back. Also the Gemara says one should really try not to walk behind girls, so...

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Oh, and it's true what your cousins wee saying; the outfits they wear sort of make them unattractive, but many of them are still intrinsicly attractive..

The Candy Man said...

Sounds like your teacher is the one with the one-track mind.

The Candy Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mikeinmidwood said...

candy man

I agree tothat.

Off the Derech said...

I agree with espes.
Bowling is the best.

EsPes said...

frumskeptic- i agree with the pool thing- either theyre looking at ur chest or at ur behind when u bend over. but hey what can u do? theyll always be looking. i also still go shoot pool on dates.

DYS said...

First of all, a teacher reinforcing gender stereotypes to young girls should NOT be teaching. Let her spew her nonsense about rules for dating somewhere else.

Second of all, yes, guys look. That's kind of human nature and not a big deal. Been that way for as long as there have been humans. That doesn't mean that women have to see themselves as sex objects. And contrary to what your teacher might think, most guys see girls sexually AND value them as paople at the same time. Why is there a conflict?

Also, don't extrapolate from teenage boys to all men. Teenage boys are just hormones with legs.

Jessica said...

Candyman - Could not agree more!

DYS - Exactly what I was thinking! And thanks for the new vocab word: extrapolate.

Joodah said...

Most guys actually think of 2-3 things.

Girls, Video games And/Or sports.

If the whole idea of tzniut is not to entice the guy, isn't wearing a button down shirt for the sake of enticing, well, not tzniut?

Not letting a boy hold the door for you or bowl with them is bullcrap. You might as well never let a guy stand behind you. If a guy is going to check you out, then he's going to check you out. Not much you can do about it.

frumpunk said...

So its okay to say that guys do nothing but think about sex, but if I say a girl is just a bag of emotions waiting to explode, they call me sexist!? (j/k, really...)

But in all seriousness, the button-down shirt thing is stupid. Tzniyus-wise, they're better than a t-shirt or sweater because they're not form-fitting. In fact, the only problem with them is when they're too tight, so you could see a bit in between the buttons.

Joodah said...

You know, if we were all nudist, this wouldn't be a problem. Damn you, Adam and Eve (and snake!)!!

Moshe said...

Sex, food, video games.

Schoolgirl uniforms is a fetish btw.

frumpunk said...

Oh yeah, what dys is saying about gender stereotypes. I'm definitely of the opinion that telling a bunch of high school girls that all men think about is sex is just wrong. Arent they basically saying "girls, your dad and brothers are constantly thinking about having sex all the time."

Sounds a wee bit damaging to me.

Moshe said...

It is true though.

frumskeptic said...

DYS- most of my teachers shouldn't have been teaching-

And gender stereotyping is often a theme in BY. You have no idea how many classes I've had in which the teachers would mention how feminism was the anti-frum, and how all woman are motherly and all that.

FP- there are PLENTY of form-fitting button down shirts. And many girls just use safety pins to avoid the seeing inbetween buttons.

Rich Perkins said...

I had a friend tell me that a shadchan wanted to know if she wore a seat belt. She answered yes and assumed the question was about personal safety. Wrong! The guy wanted to know because he felt it was un-tzniut for a girl to wear a seat belt because it accentuated her chest.

When it comes down to it, virtually anything can be considered un-tzniut if you want to come up with a crazy enough reason. I mean, maybe long skirts are not good because guys will think you are purposely covering your super-sexy legs.

And don't get me started on collar bones . . . ooh la la ;)

Moshe said...

The elders of zion should issue a ban on girls wearing anything other than burkas on dates.

Lion of Zion said...


"And gender stereotyping is often a theme in BY."

gender stereotyping is often a theme among orthodox jews in general

frumskeptic said...

LOZ- "gender stereotyping is often a theme among orthodox jews in general"

So very very true!

Hanna said...

Just discovered this blog, loving it so far! I have to say that first of all, I would NEVER go out with a guy who didn't open doors for me. Any guy who claims it's immodest is just taking the easy way out.
Also, I find it rather amusing that the standard post-seminary/pre-marriage outfit involves a button-down shirt. I guess these girls have to give their dates something to look forward to when all they're hearing is the same "Touro, OT/PT" crap, over and over again. And yes, BY schools constantly spew this BS about how our mission in life is not to distract men from their learning blah blah, so we may as well be invisible. Only when in more 'modern' circles did I realize that some guys are actually interested in what you have to SAY, and can value you as a person as opposed to merely an object.

LMAO! I always found going bowling with guys to be a bit awkward, as you mentioned, especially while wearing a tight skirt. But hey, at least we get to check out the guys too! ;)

Ophir said...

Guys are always thinking about sex. It doesn't help though if girls wear revealing clothes or flirt with guys. I also don't understand how it is untznius for a a guy to open a door for a girl. Also, why do girls want the door opened for them? You cant be a feminist and want your guy to be chauvinistic. It is a two-way street.

mlevin said...

Ophir - When looking for a husband a girl wants someone to rely on. Once married she is risking her health and life with each pregnancy. If she is no longer able to care for her children, it will fall up to him [husband] to do it. If she is an invalid, he would have to take care of her and children, too...

One way to tell if he's capable of caring for wife and children is to analyze his behaivor on a date. If he acts in a selfish manner and doesn't even bother to open a door for a girl (common curtesy), than how would he act towards invalid wife and small children?

Ophir said...

mlevin- Are we talking about a building door or a car door? if it is a building door, you are right it is a little selfish but not the biggest deal in the world. A person can still be a great human being and be able to care for his wife and kids. Also, no woman is thinking that on a first date. If she is there is something wrong with her.

EsPes said...

melvin- that is a bit extreme

frumskeptic said...

Ophir- opening the door has nothign to do with feminism, it has to do with courtesy and respect towards women.

A guy HAS to get married according to halacha. a woman does NOT. He has to prove to HER that he's worth her time.

frumskeptic said...

"I also don't understand how it is untznius for a a guy to open a door for a girl. "

Cuz he'll be checking out her tush.

Ophir said...

Frumskeptic- I think you are very smart and love your posts. That last comment was just terribly dumb. I am sorry. I was only upset about the second part of your last comment. I disagree with the first part but respect it.A man technically doesn't have to get married. He can have kids without getting married. Also, no one is thinking that, even if we did have to get married. Also, if i got out of the car to open her door, a lot of girls would feel like they are invalids and wouldn't appreciate it. A lot of girls want to feel independent nowadays.

Ophir said...

If I want to check a girls tush out I would just do it. There are plenty of opportunities. I don't need to create pathetic ones. I think most guys feel that way unless they are sheltered. Which I guess a lot of yeshivish guys are.

frumskeptic said...

Ophir- It is very hard within the confines of d'rabanan law to have kids without getting married.

goodluck with that.

Sorry if I'm coming off mean, I'm just pointing out the fact.

I forgot where it says, but somewhere in some Torah source (whether the Torah itself or commentaries) it says that in marraige a man and woman should be together and the woman should be happy.

A Talmid asked "Shouldn't it say that they should be happy together?"

And the Rabbi responded "If you make the wife happy, you will be happy."

It goes something like that. If you treat her with respect, and make her happy (opening the door is only an example), she'll make you happy. A happy woman, generally likes to spread her happiness.

Whatever. I know it would fit with me. When other ppl treat me nice, I treat them even nicer. Didn't really survey my freinds, so the truth behind that is only a generalization- based on me- lol.

Ophir said...

Don't get me wrong. I think it is very important to keep the wife happy. I just don't think opening the car door for a girl is a sign of respect. It is a little thing that most guys don't do anymore. Times change. Girls have to realize that just because a guy doesn't open the car door for you doesn't mean he won't try and make you happy.

frumskeptic said...

Ophir- Opening the door is only an example. There is soooo much more to it. Girls are taught to pay attention. Heck, the frummer, the more "paying attention" is like a disease, and she'll notice EVERYTHING you do.

In the olden days guys used to come in for the first date, meet the dad, open the car door for the girl, then walk her up the stairs to her front door (even if he didn't like her) after the date.

Nowadays, guys are just messed up. Date story from a freind:

they finish the meal,the waiter comes by, asks if they want dessert. He orders, and doesnt even ask if she wants, says 'thats it' when the dessert comes, he doesnt ask for another plate to split or anything. Just sits and eats infront of her!

Come on!

This guy OPENED the door for her.


this happened to me as well as freinds:

close to midnight the guy drops girl off, she just manages to get out of the car, he drives away.

WTF? Is she a dog to be dropped off on the sidewalk?

And these are guys who want more dates. Not the ones that don't call back.

Something is VERY off. and its done universally, not just by a specific group of guys the yeshivish as well as the ultra-modern or not frum, the younger ones and the older ones.


Beleive me, we're not only paying attention to the door opening. maybe on our first date ever we're naive enough to think that's all it takes, later we learn our lesson, unfortunately the "hard" way.


If you begin by opening the door, you start off with a nice first impression

Ophir said...

You are right. There is a fine line between being a jerk and something not a big deal. Even if that guy was out with his guy friend, he is a jerk(with the dessert). Also, for a guy friend, especially at night, you wait for him to get in the house. I think the rule is if you wouldn't do something without being on a date so then don't do it on a date. I don't open the doors for friends so I don't think it is a jerk thing if I don't do it on a date. Also, I have no problem with girls looking for these things. The problem is that that is all they look for and lose sight on what is really important. You can see if a person is a mentch before you marry them.

frumskeptic said...

Ophir- I would open the door for my friends. :-). And I'm serious. not being difficult. lol.

"You can see if a person is a mentch before you marry them."

We hope so. lol. :)

though I gotta say, I would find it really humurous if before a date a guy asked me "are you the type to like the door being open, or not?"

I think after that point I'd like him just for being sincere enough to ask. we all know its a game for him to open teh door, we just like the fact he's going out of his way. And sicne nowadays it really does sick with feminism (damn feminists), why should he drive himself crazy figuring out each girl. lol :-)

frumskeptic said...

does suck*** with feminsim with feminism.


Ophir said...

I know your not trying to be difficult. When you say you "would" does that mean you do or hypothetically? Those are two different things. Also, I would like that guy also, but it is a very awkward question to ask on a first date. You are right it is a game. But it is a stupid game and I won't play it.

frumskeptic said...

well i dont drive, but i DO open the door in restuarants. :-).

Doesnt count. I know. But its not like guys open the doors their either! :)

Ophir said...

Typical city girl...doesn't know how to drive:)jk. Well those guys are jerks. I don't think if on the first date a guy doesn't open the restaurant door it is a reason to not go out again. If it a constant thing then it is.

frumskeptic said...

I try sooo hard not to be typical, I guess it just catches up with me when I'm not focused. hehe ;)

opening the door = brownie points.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

hm. Interesting discussion. I side with ophir here though; you're on a date, you're not lovers or something. Why can't things just be chilled out- normal? Again, usually with friends if somebody needs something done, you do it- if not, not. All all this fancy door-opening stuff does is create awkwardness. But I agree with Anita; talking about it might make it a bit less weird...

Katie said...

I was sitting on a bench outside a restaurant one day, when I saw nearby a middle aged woman walked to the door to enter the restaurant, at the same time as an elderly man.
She was about to open the door for him, but he instead opened it for her, and said, "Beauty before age." Made me smile.

frumskeptic said...

katie- awwwww!!! that is soooo cute. :-)

katie said...


Maidel said...

I like a man who opens my door.

But sometimes when you're wearing 4-inch heels and a pencil skirt, you gotta make sure you're not about to pull a britney.

frumskeptic said...

as long as you make sure you wear underwear, you'll be fine. ;)

G3 said...

"opening the door has nothign to do with feminism, it has to do with courtesy and respect towards women."

It has nothing to do with courtesy, and certainly not respect. It has to do with women in corsets and hoop skirts not being able to get down from a carriage two feet off the ground on their own. They needed help. And women at the time were considered weak (which they were, with corsets severely restrcting oxygen intake). They needed a man to help them get down. This evolved into it being "polite" for a man to open car doors for women. So opening a car door is an affirmation of the inferiority of women.

Oh, and its also possible that if a guy doesn't open doors, he may just be clueless. Ask him why he didn't open the door - it may have never occured to him that he should.

frumskeptic said...

g3- maybe, but I'm all ok with them opening the door for me now. :)

makes me feel awesome. :)