My friend and I were shmoozing and ofcourse the conversation led to politics.
She tells me "Don't worry, if Obama wins, Moshiach will come."
I started lmao. Really.
I responded, "oh really? the Jews lived through so much crap and so much antisemitism; the Crusades, the Inquisition, pogroms and the holocaust, and so much other stuff. Why in the world would Obama winning the presidency bring about moshiach if all those events didn't? Don't you think it something that stupid would bring about Moshiach the Jewish people would've lobbied to elect an annoying guy from Chicago with a terrible economic policy many many years ago?"
She couldn't answer me...duh!
What the hell is wrong with my friend? Who feeds her this crap and why does she buy it?
36 comments:
It's a way to bury your head in the sand and take the pressure off of actions that you see as having absolutely no control over. Moshiach is the answer to every problem that seems unsolvable. Aliens are coming from outerspace to eat us all. Don't worry Moshiach is the answer. The same would apply for other less dooming problems, like Obama winning the presidency for 4 years, until people realize that his promise of change is meaningless.
Well...If you really believe that if people screw evertyhing up, then Moshiach will come, why bother being good? Why not everyone just stop being frum, and elect Obama, or whatever else there is, and get moshiach here quicker.
Why did we bother repenting on Yom Kippur?
The only thing I get out of all this is that people are really stupid and don't actually want Moshiach to come.
Kind of funny that you should post that about your friend's silly comment. I happen to support Obama in a big way, and I really hope he wins. Just the same, I was saying last night to my wife that if Obama wins, I plan to write a post on my blog titled "Obama is not the mashiach". People put way too much hopes on politicians to save them and they think that if their guy wins then everything will be solved. When has it ever happened that way? I'm supporting the person who I think is the better of the 2 candidates and I have hopes for his administration, but he's still a politician and government is still government. People have to take the energy they put into a campaign and then redirect it to put pressure on the officials they just elected to do the right thing.
I have heard this before but it aint true. The ruling goes when Yishmael which is the arabs gain control of the world Moshich will come. First Obama isnt muslim and even if he is he isnt an arab he was raised in singapore. 2) there were more than one time in history that the arabs almost ruled the whole world. 1000 years ago the arabs almost controled the whole world and again 500 years ago so this could also be a false alarm.
I was actually thinking that maybe she got it from the vast OJ ridiculous theory that he's a muslim, but I don't think she beleives he really is one.
Though...You did make an awesome point. It's still just not true.
skeptic, you ought to get out of your neighborhood and hit somewhere a little more modernish. these folks will drive you crazy eventually... and maybe you'll realize that obama's economic policy ain't so terrible after all.
my neighborhood may just drive me crazy one day, but my neighborhood has absolutely no influence whatsoever on my view of Barack Obama's economic policy.
From a frum standpoint I'd think Barack Obama's economic policy is just grand... its like forced tzedekah. You can go into Yom Kippur knowing you gave maaser, in peace.
But I'm not looking at it from a frum standpoint. I'm looking at it from a fair standpoint.
It's my money, i worked for it, i should keep it and choose for myself how to spend it and who I feel deserves to be getting assistance in their time of financial distress.
oh...and from a practical standpoint.
The government is full of cheating, power-hungry idiots (from both parties), they don't deserve to make to many financial decisions.
my neighborhood may just drive me crazy one day, but my neighborhood has absolutely no influence whatsoever on my view of Barack Obama's economic policy.
Ah, this is where we disagree. I suspect a person's neighborhood is the single biggest influence on what they think.
It's mind-blowing that mature adults with families actually believe in the Moshaich myth. It's as valid as Santa and Rudolph!
Well, Jay, even scientists agree that our world cannot go on indefinitely as it is. Something has to happen every now and than. There are falling comets... Moon moves further and further from Earth... Gigantic Volcanic eruptions which will literally shake the whole world... New virus/bacteria that will kill us all... Alien from other planets... Sun will eventually burn out... Human caused accidents/incidents...
So, if one believes that souls are eternal, than there must be an alternative way for souls to live... Thus Mashiach.
I'm sure the community is a huge influence. ANd I definitly get influenced by mine, I won't even bother denying it.
However, When it comes to economics, I hardly respect my communities opinion, nevermind listen to it.
I have a tiny investment portfolio, which has stocks, a CD, and banking/lending (prosper.com). I read about economics ALL the time.
Under Obama's supposed tax plan, I wouldn't get a tax increase. However, I wouldn't get a raise, because my bosses would. Inflation goes up every year. So while I wouldn't get taxed (supposedly), my salary probably wouldn't climb with the inflation.
Also, If you raise taxes on corporations, than that means they'll have less capital. IF they have less capital to work with, they'll need to find ways to raise it. Which means, they'll raise prices of their goods or services.
When food prices went up this year, more housholds had to tighten their belts to fit their budgets. There was a direct result from the rise in the food prices to the decline in consumer spending on non-commodity goods, which means companies had lower profit margins and possibly had to lay-people off.
Why raise anything? Let the capitalist system work for itself.
Obama's policies, if passed, would further kill the economy. Now is not the time to raise taxes on anyone.
I meant :
***I wouldn't get a raise because my bosses would get taxed***
CANDYMAN:
"Ah, this is where we disagree. I suspect a person's neighborhood is the single biggest influence on what they think."
not on what they they think, but rather on what they do. in certain jewish neighborhoods it doesn't matter what you think, because in the end you will conform in your actions to external expectations.
MLEVIN:
"So, if one believes that souls are eternal, than there must be an alternative way for souls to live... Thus Mashiach."
the part of the soul that is eternal is immaterial and has no physical existence/requirements. the world as we know it coming to an end has nothing to do with the eternality of our נשמות and is not a reason to hinge your bets on the immanent arrival of משיח
I agree about politicians from both parties being power hungry..... LOL some people are convinced that once this candidate or that candidate gets elected we'll automatically have world peace, etc.
Totally unbiased, but Obama's econ. policy sounds a little like socialism I think? Not sure.
"Totally unbiased, but Obama's econ. policy sounds a little like socialism I think? Not sure."
Yup. It does. Which is why my parents (former USSR citizens) hate Obama.
In the end, both of them are lying and not much will change. Still, I don't want democrats in power, they ruined this country enough as it is.
"obama's economic policy ain't so terrible after all."
Oh yes it is.
Ichabod Chrain
"the part of the soul that is eternal is immaterial and has no physical existence/requirements. the world as we know it coming to an end has nothing to do with the eternality of our נשמות and is not a reason to hinge your bets on the immanent arrival of משיח"
Actually it does. If you realize that our physical world comes to an end, then there must be a vehicle to "save" it. In Judaism we believe that after Mashiach we will go to the next world.This world will also be physical, but with different attributes.
Christians for instance don't believe in the next world. They believe in Heaven which is not physical at all. Thus the only way to get there is to die and release your soul.
Jews don't have this believe. We believe that once Mashiach comes we will all congregate in Israel/Jerusalem. We believe that we will fly there by help of a magical bird, or a form of it, but a physical action. All those dead and buried, would also tunnel their way back to Israel. Those who did not get buried, somehow, miraclously will get a buriel spot to tunnel themselves back. We believe, that once there Hashem will help us rebuild The Temple and all the construction will be accomplished in one day. All of it requires physical action... Thus a necessity of Mashiach.
MLEVIN:
jewish eschatology is rich, variegated and full of conflicting ideas, i.e., believe whatever makes you comfortable.
it is your prerogative to believe in magical birds, tunneling corpses, etc.
but i guess we shouldn't write "we" when it does not really describe "us" but rather just some of us. and you also shouldn't misrepresent such a dichotomous distinction between what jews and christians believe. (e.g., your description of what "christians" believe is essentially what the rambam himself believed)
"it is your prerogative to believe in magical birds, tunneling corpses, etc."
My point is not that I literally believe these predictions, but that they all describe physical actions. Thus whatever will happen, will be physical. I'm not familiar with Rambam's predictions. Is it possible for you give a short summary.
I've heard tons of kids say the same thing. But for some reason I didn't buy it.
Perhaps I am getting influenced by the internet after all.
I remember the time when I was going into 8th grade, in the summer everyone was saying how Moshiach is going to come because of certain things. It sounded so good, but then nothing happened.
But I still do believe in the concepts that you can tell Moshiach is coming because of the chutzpah, and that when we fall so low, just like by mitzrayim Hashem took us out, He will take us out again.
Also, btw, remember you said that Moshiach will come in a set time, so were you referring to the year 6000? cause I think by that time Moshiach has to for sure come.
btw, the whole election thing is like sports, it's like a show, "I want my guy to win", and then everyone has a part when their team wins.
babysitter- when I said that I think moshiach will come at a specific time I didn't mean year 6000, I meant that Hashem already has an allocated time for his arrival which has absulately nothing to do with human actions.
"btw, the whole election thing is like sports, it's like a show, "I want my guy to win", and then everyone has a part when their team wins."
People who traet politics as a sport are dumb morons and are probably the very people who I wish would just not vote.
Unfortunately, today's politicians act as if they're barbaric competitive idiots, but that doesn't make politics anyless serious a subject than it is. Its not about winning or losing, its about policies. Even if the "wrong" guy wins, the country moves on. Its not just a seasonal occurance. there are always senatoral and congressional elections held in between presidential elections, which can help balance a fanatic president or such.
"Perhaps I am getting influenced by the internet after all"
B'H! and for the good too. :)
FrumSkeptic: your right about what you said, the country does move on and even if the bad guy looses you want to perfect his presidency so that it will be good.
lol, if that's what you say :-)
i believe in this comment. you can say the jews went through terrible things before and therefore question why mashiach didn't come then, but you must also realize that it is not only terrible things that bring mashiach closer. as jews, we must improve and become more religious and feel a yearning to return to our religion. i know of many cases lately where this has been happening. also, some of the greatest rabbis of our day have had dreams where mashiach has come, and rabbi's dreams are not like the average person's, they have meaning. they have also found sources in the Torah which states that when obama wins, mashiach will come. there will be a worldwide war before mashiach will come and many believe, including myself, that the economy failing and the controversy over obama is the start of this war, and it will culminate after obama wins. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so believe what you want.
The Torah mentions Obama?
And this isn't the first time the world was at a brink of war. Afterall, this would already be WW3.
Plus, we've had MANY elections in which there was controversy.
To think Obama would automatically bring moshiach is naive, if not dumb.
But the real question is, are you voting? If so, for Obama I presume? Because if you really believe a victory for him would bring moshiach, voting for McCain is just a postponment of the inevitable- WW3 and such, and the ultimate redemption (which is supposed to be good, no?). Taking the bandage off fast would bring less pain.
not to mention that there was a Great Depression from 1929 through the 30's which ended because of WW2. An economic crisis FAR FAR worse than the one the world is currently experiencing.
Afterall, our crisis is hardly even labled a recession, wheras we've had a few recessions since.
aside form the depression, the 1930's was filled with droughts and starvation. With far worse conditions than we have today.
I mean, seriously, you need to open a history book.
well if you read what i wrote you would see that i wrote that hard times are not the only cause for mashiach to come. and i will vote for who i believe should win, because i believe that G-d will take care of the rest in terms of mashiach coming. and to call me dumb for believing in something is pure immaturity, because, after all, you don't have all the information.
anonymous:
"well if you read what i wrote you would see that i wrote that hard times are not the only cause for mashiach to come."
I did read what you wrote, and you wrote Obama is written in the Torah.
Now, I assumed that you didn't mean Obama himself, but a person that Obama fits the description of.
I was pointing out that MANY figures in history could've fit that same description.
We were in economic messes pre-war (The Depression) with political controversies (Hoover vs. Roosevelt). There wer alot of controversies with Roosevelt, in office and such. Things he did with the new deal, were totally NOT backed my constitutional law.
Same with Obama, he's running under a very socialist-like system of "fairness" which he calls.
"and i will vote for who i believe should win, because i believe that G-d will take care of the rest in terms of mashiach coming."
I didn't actually mean for you to tell me who you're voting for. You are entitled to your privacy. Was only pointing out how illogical it is to vote for the candidate (assuming you'd be a follower of the vast majority of the frummy voting populace) that will NOT bring moshiach. Seems detrimental.
-I also firmly beleive that Gd will take care of moshiach when he is meant to come. So then why would Obama or not Obama be the one to bring him? Its all up to gd, not who gets elected. Therefore, thinking an Obama victory would bring moshiach is a simple lack of emunah in Hashem (as you pointed out).
"and to call me dumb for believing in something is pure immaturity, because, after all, you don't have all the information."
I didn't call you dumb. I said thinking that an Obama victory would bring moshiach here was dumb. Two very different things.
"Everyone's entitled to be stupid, but you're abusing the privilege" type thing.
I didn't accuse you of being stupid, just that you're definitly using your privilege, because you're right, I wouldn't have enough information from that comment to know whether or not you're dumb or not.
I just read my last comment, and I think i need to buy myself the tshirt that says "department of redundancy department"
:-)
actually it says obama in the Torah, not a description of him. They found a passage that spells out his name acrostically, and before that it says nasi, which mean president, and afterwards it says mashiach.
are u kidding? ure relying on bible codes? with bible codes it works like this:
you set out with a mission on what you're looking for and u find it. but u won't find anything ure NOT looking for.
meaning: supposedly as u say Obama is in there. which may just be so. but 100 yrs ago u wouldn't have found him cuz he was a non-existent being and u wouldn't have known to look for him. which means that in another 100 yrs or even less, we may find something in there that will show that Obama is just some insignificant person and this controversy (which is in every election) has nothing to do with any rabbinic derivatins and interpretations of gemaras and bible codes.
just a name in a bible code doesn't saý much.
and really I wish it to be true. The coming of moshiach would be awesome. but I have no intention of living a false hope because of a bible code
sure we have false alarms many times, but if you can't trust some of the biggest rabbis of our generation, rabbis that can take one glance at you, and reveal your whole history(which btw is true, then what can you believe?
Trust...interesting word.
As you've said, we've had many false alarms, whats to say this isn't a new one?
I'm sure people in the olden days also beleived it was true that Rebbeim then were able to read their history too.
They probably read your history the way horoscopes are, vague and obvious.
I'm not here to tell you what to believe, I'm just saying you can't deny that there is another side to the story and your friend is not the only one who thinks so, there are MANY people who believe that mashiach is coming soon, and it's time to start recognizing that.
"you can't deny that there is another side to the story "
There are like 72 sides to any given story.
"and your friend is not the only one who thinks so,"
My friend said what she said out of ignorance. And I'm sure of that, or else she would've argued with me. She does that on occassion.
"there are MANY people who believe that mashiach is coming soon"
That is irrelevant to whether or not Obama wins.
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