Thursday, October 9, 2008

Yom Kippur pet-peeves

There are many people who annoy me on a regular basis, but on Yom kippur I try very hard not to be annoyed, but there are always those who tend to irk me, and here is a list of them

1- The people who wear cologne or perfume. Normally I like perfumes and colognes, but on an empty stomach the scents are just annoying, and make me nauseus. I get very dizzy and well, I think every shul should send out letters that say "No Perfume, no leater shoes.." but stress the perfume part.

2- People who drive to shul. Really now, if you're a RH/YK Jew and you show up to an orthodox synagogue, please be respectful and park a block away. Don't park right infront, then take your cell phone out, and just walk in.

3- Parents who don't send their above 5-yr-old children away when they come in towards the end of davening with food. Its very bad. I remember when my sister used to do that, my mom would either go out with her, or tell her to go play with her friends while she had her food.

4- People who finish their shemonei esrei really fast and then sit back, even though you, who are right behind them are still not done. When the people in front of me sit, I lose alot of focus, and I try very hard not to let it bother me, but it does.

5- Parents with very talkative children who just let them sit during davening. I'm all for kids being in shul. I really am, I love kids and when lil babies are sitting in their carraiges next to their moms, I am automatically in a good mood. But if your kid is talking ALOT take him out until he calms down and only then should you allow him back in during davening. I've taken a few kids out for people during speeches and stuff (over the years-mostly on shabbos though), its not a hard thing to do, even if you don't have a teenager or 20-something to take the kids out for you.


Anyway, I hope you all have a happy and healthy new year.

Next Year in Jerusalem!!!!

29 comments:

Anonymous said...

foooooooood :)

Child Ish Behavior said...

I can really relate to #4, I hate it that people sit down in front of me while I say shemona esray. It's a Halacha that you are not supposed to sit down until the person if back of you is finished. And on Yom Kippur people are so selfish, it boggles the mind.

eety01 said...

i can relate to the perfume thing--- during neilah the lady next to me was wearing perfume- i felt like i was going to throw up the entire time!!!

another one of mine is when ppl daven shmoneh esrei loud enuf for u to hear- its SOOO distracting!

also when the person in front of you moves their chair back so that they can have more room, while making you have half the amount.

frumskeptic said...

childish- I didn't know it was a halacha. That is very intersting.

eety- the thing about people davening loud enough distracts me as well. But I try to think htey don't realize they're loud (like I said, I try very hard to not get annoyed).

B"H my shul has benches not chairs, so no one can move, but I can definitly imagine that being annoying.

eety01 said...

i also tell myself that they dont realize theyre loud... but its soooo hard to daven shmoneh esreh when u can hear every word of someone elses!

frumskeptic said...

eety- That is annoying!!! I agree.

Hopefully next year we'll be in Jerusalem and we won't have these types of problems :).

Anonymous said...

This is gross but annoying, after not eating for about 15 hours I expect people to have some breath issues but really do you have to sigh loudly and breathe all over me? I hate that instead of thinking about anything I end up praying people learn how to breathe through their nose.

Anonymous said...

i agree with everything xcept the people in from of you sitting down part. in anycase, thats why i don't go to shul so i cant annoy anyone and if my kids annoy someone then its dh's responsibility

:)

frumskeptic said...

when kids distract for two seconds its not a problem. Everyone talks, kids or not.

No excuse not to show up to shul and not take the lil darlings with you.

eety01 said...

heh anon just reminded me of another pet peeve of mine! when mothers send their kids to shul with their hubbys so that they can stay home in peace and watch the baby or wtvr... what do they think is going on in shul? do they think that their kids are sitting like angels while their father davens??? men are usually pretty oblivious to their kids running around!!! if the mother isnt at shul, then the kids most definitely shouldnt be!!!

Moshe said...

I'm #4, but, I sit at the head of the table so there's no one in behind me. Also, I use the time to make up the daf, which also allows me to sit while others are standing and to not say the stuff during chazan's repetition.

Moshe said...

My pet peeves, gabbai selling everything, shacharis and mincha, for over freaking hour. Strange people joining in for the Daf and asking stupid questions, repeatedly. Old Russians who are coming for yizkor making stupid comments, don't like it, don't come here.

Dina said...

My biggest peeve is people talking during davening. People, I didn't get the babysitter to come for the day so I can listen to your fascinating disquisitions on all your friends and relations. Oh, and to the person who came up to me in the middle of Musaf and tried to get legal advice... I have no words for this, i tell you, no words.

Moshe said...

While you were davening or after?

DYS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DYS said...

1 - agree

2 - I agree that they shouldn't park at shul. But if they wouldn't come to shul at all if they didn't drive and they park a block away like you said, are you OK with that? There are plenty of people in my shul like that (any "out of town" Orthodox shul, frankly) but they all park out of sight and are respectful.

3 - agree

4 - I can get how it can be annoying, but some people are poor fasters and have a hard time standing. And what about the elderly? Is it fair to tell them to stand just because the person behind them has such kavannah that they say shmoneh esrei for an hour and a half?

5 - My shul arranges babysitting upstairs. The teenage girls rotate watching the little kids. Our shul is very quiet during davening.

Anonymous said...

I don’t drive on Holidays or Shabbat. I heard both sides of the argument for and against allowing people to drive in. I will even agree that things such as, cell phones ringing in shul, talking on the cell phone in the lobby outside of shul, heck talking in the shul is disrespectful as all are directly distracting to the people and occur “within” the actual sanctuary or building of worship.

But the parking lot, although technically property of the place of worship, really is not the place of worship and specifically calling that act “disrespectful” I don’t get. What pretending like they walked to shul is more respectful or is it creating the illusion that everyone follows halacha identically.

Disrespectful means rude, showing no courtesy; rude and maybe to its most liberal sense irreverent mocking of sacred things.

Yet people who drive a fundamental difference of opinion on the meaning of Torah and are not trying to throw that in the face of others. If one comes to a temple, synagogue, mosque or western wall, they are expected to behave a certain way when they are “in” the building, not as they travel to the place. At least they are there, at least they are in a frum environment which is an accomplishment in this day and age.

You can easily look the other way, let things go and see the positive in their actions and that may be a better way to begin the year then posting all the negative and irritating things we do to one another.

mlevin said...

anonymous - these people drive a car to shul on YK not because they think there is a difference of an opinion, but because they can. It's as simple as that. These people come to shul only once a year. They do it, because they need to say Itzchar. They think that by saying it, they are paying respect to their dead ancestors. That is the one and only reason why they come to shul on Y"K. There is no respect for the place or regular worshippers.

So, if you have no respect, why come at all? If you don't believe in Gd why even bother with dead people, after all they are dead and no longer exist? If, on the other hand, you believe in Gd, and you go to shul to pay respect to the souls of your ancestors, then respect should be extended to those who are maintaining the place and keep it functioning all year long.

Not driving on Shabbos is synonymous with orthodox Jewry. It’s not a secret. If one drives instead of walking and parks in front of the shul, he is in fact demeaning regular worshippers. He is saying, “You all idiots, abstaining from work, praying and keeping koshers. I don’t have to do any of those things and I get to say Itzchar just like you. Everything you adhere for is bull.”

Anonymous said...

Mlevin calm down a bit. You are correct that they come for Itzchar no doubt! But you are simplifying and generalizing everyone’s beliefs.

“There is no respect for the place or regular worshippers.” You are jumping to that conclusion and assuming others motivations.

“If you don't believe in Gd why even bother with dead people, after all they are dead and no longer exist?” You also pulled that out of thin air and imposed your preconceived judgmental opinion on others. Jumped to conclusions again! Who said they didn’t believe in G-d?

If one drives instead of walking and parks in front of the shul, he is in fact demeaning regular worshippers. He is saying, “You all idiots, abstaining from work, praying and keeping koshers. I don’t have to do any of those things and I get to say Itzchar just like you. Everything you adhere for is bull.”- No, he or she is driving to shul so they can be in shul to pay some respects to a person who was and is very dear to them. You added all those words to the persons action, you decided to take it as a personal attack when they probably only had their loved ones in mind. They are not going out of their way to drive to shul just to piss you off.

Look some people don’t believe in the oral law, some people, whether right or wrong, individualize religion. So what! Mind your own business or if you must then influence them positively, befriend them, inspire them and do not judge others so hastily. Struggling with belief is complex and no two people are generally the same.

I have to calm my irritation as well when I see everyone pile in for Itzchar and then leave as soon as its done but I have no idea of what life has put those people through to get to that point.

It took one time speaking to these once a year Itzchar visitors to shut me up. I found out that the old lady was a survivor of the holocaust and seemed to give up on all religion, almost at least, and this was the one time she came back. What I am supposed to judge her struggle, her love and anger to G-d! What she said to Hashem, who she cried for and why, I have no idea, but I do know that coping with mortality and struggling with religious beliefs are more complicated then we like to make them out to be. And moments will occur in one’s life when you feel close or far from G-d, those moments are highly personal and precious.

If I were on my death bed having spent a life time not-speaking to my son or daughter because of some argument and they showed up in my final hour to cry and talk, I wouldn’t hate them for the years they spent away from me; I would love and cherish that moment, no matter how fleeting it may be.

Hashem would love us all to follow his every mitzvah, but don’t belittle the little steps and moments. Appreciate them for existing at all.

mlevin said...

"They are not going out of their way to drive to shul just to piss you off."

You have missed a point. They don't want to "piss me off" They look down on me and all other regular worshippers. They think that we are way below them to even attempt to piss us off. That is why I claim they have no respect. That car shows that they don't care about us, or our ways, all they want is to do their 5 minutes obligation in shul and wipe their hands of all that "dirty business"

"You also pulled that out of thin air and imposed your preconceived judgmental opinion on others."

First If you look back to what I wrote I said "If you don't believe in Gd" with the key word IF. Meaning some not all, if any.

Second Believe that there is no GD also implies that once someone dies they cease to exist. No after life, no heaven, no place for souls, no reicarnation. Nada, zero, nothing. It's not preconcieved, it's part of a believe. One cannot believe that there is no G-d and believe in afterlife and souls at the same time. The two just don't go together.

Everything else you have said, has in no way anything to do with respect or disrespect of those who drive to ORTHODOX shul on Yom Kippur. It is just a bunch of emotional tear jerkers which have nothing to do with our conversation.

Anonymous said...

“They look down on me and all other regular worshippers. They think that we are way below them to even attempt to piss us off. That is why I claim they have no respect.”

You assume they look down on you.



First If you look back to what I wrote I said "If you don't believe in Gd" with the key word IF. Meaning some not all, if any.

I saw your IF and simply am saying you’re IF in the first place is you assuming some disrespectful atheist pointlessly came to show respect for the dead. Both our points are non-points technically because if someone were a true atheist, they would not be at shul for your stated reasons thus IF they are there, they are at most agnostic and agnostic by definition means there is some uncertainty.

“Everything else you have said, has in no way anything to do with respect or disrespect of those who drive to ORTHODOX shul on Yom Kippur. It is just a bunch of emotional tear jerkers which have nothing to do with our conversation.”

No it’s real life and real life is seldom simple. If it’s tear jerker b.s. then that’s because the topic is a tearjerker. What do you expect when we are critiquing people who come to shul to talk to Hashem about their dead spouse, child or parent! What you expect it to be some cold non-emotional conversation.

People belief or non-belief in Hashem could stem from a bad child hood, abuse, tragedy, influenced by the chaos in the world around them or simply due to a lack of caring but you seem to want to lump everyone in the last category.

Get off your high horse. Some people just aren’t sure about what you take for granted is clear as day. But at least once a year they are sure of one thing, life does matter, G-d does listen and it’s important to acknowledge the impact that loved one’s have on those they leave behind.

Or maybe they just came to shul to express their indifference of torah, the stupidity of you and the rest of our community and it has nothing to do with a serious inner call to acknowledge, at least once a year, that life has real meaning; even if afterwards they just drive home and watch tv.

mlevin said...

Who said they come to shul to talk to Gd. They come to shul to pay respect to the dead. Period. After shul they drive to a restaurant to celebrate great Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur. That's right. You heard it right. After Yizkor at about 12:30 in the afternoon, they get together with their friends to eat a holiday meal. Yes, they do look at us with disdain. And yes, I spoke to them. I know exactly what they are thinking because they had no qualms about telling it to me straight to my face...

cherevshachar said...

Just for the record; it is actually possible to disbelieve in God (at least the sort of god that Orthodox Judaism conceives) - and still consider that there might be something more to existence than our physical life on this world. Personally, I no longer worry about it, nor base my life-choices on it, rather than on informed ethical choice. I figure I'll find out sooner or later - or not.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, they do look at us with disdain. And yes, I spoke to them. I know exactly what they are thinking because they had no qualms about telling it to me straight to my face..."

If someone really said that to your face then fine, that person(s) really do believe what yous aid but you have no right to make that blanket statement about them all. You really need to relax and stop this nonsense. you are not starting this year on the right foot and are in fact personifying why I and many other laugh inside when other say earnestly "next year in Jerusalem" because it is hate, bias and the kind of attitude that you are specifically spouting that ensure no messiah is on their way.

You are obviously hurt by what someone told you but please, as is true with all people, don't let a few bad seeds ruin it for everyone. Not all Yom Tov drivers are as cold and hateful as the one you state said it to your face and I think, I hope, deep down inside you know that.

Anonymous said...

sorry about above typos, this keyboard stinks and I didn't read before I sent

mlevin said...

"...Not all Yom Tov drivers are as cold and hateful as the one..."

You miss the point. I wasn't talking about all Yom Tov drivers. I was talking about those who park right in front of the orthodox shul. (Not the parking lot, not the back alley). Then they casually come out of their car and check their cell phone...

That is in your face, stick it attitude which shows disrespect if not outright disdain.

Anonymous said...

Fine then if you are going to lump "ALL", not just the person that told you, Yom Tov drivers who park in the shul parking lot in that flicking off the Orthodox category then you are flat out wrong. Sadly and truly wrong. Even if you are arguing that it is the majority you have a pretty low opinion of your fellow Jews. Obviously nothing is going to change your misguided view today but hopefully one day you realize there is more to the non-religious that you make them out to be.

SOME may think what we do is wrong, SOME may think that not driving is crazy, and SOME may think we are living in a world that no longer exists. Yet those theoligical opinions are not the motivation for them to get in the car and park in a shul parking lot on a high holiday to pay their respect to their loved ones. They don't peer out the window at you and laugh. They don't really care because that's not the reason they came.

They do not believe what we believe and they don't live their life like that to spit in your face, they live their life like that because they believe they are right. It's a real belief not a spiteful act and we should focus on our similarities not judge one another and fight.

You really need to get that. Anyone reading this really needs to get that.

I'm done
later,

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: Number 3 I can totally relate to! Especially the sound from it all, that really got me annoyed

Number five I totally agree with, also wrote about that once. Get to know your kids . There's one lady who comes to shul and doesn't even daven and brings 4 talkative trouble makers with her, I just don't get it. Although I heard she gets a mitzvah just for going to shul, but then it's disturbing other people, so I don't think there's a point in it. In my old shul they had a non Jewish lady who would watch all the kids so that the mothers could daven in silence.

and thanx and Amen!

Anonymous said...

My mother always says that a mother's first priority on RH/YK is taking care of her children.

When I was little, the neighbors would get all the small children together in one house. The mothers would then take turns going to shul.

Teenage girls are supposed to "chapp arein" and daven now. Not babysit.