Everytime someone tries to explain why frummies have a lot of children the explanations given are always one or both of the following:
a) It is a mitzvah to reproduce by Jewish law
b) To get back at Hitler/repopulate the Jewish nation to "make up" for the 6million killed
-The first answer (a) seems decent, but definitely dumb. No reason to go on and have too many kids for a normal sane person to handle! I mean, even halacha doesn't say one has to have a crazy load of kids. Just one boy and one girl. But whatever, having a large family is nice and all. But I don't believe even-half the people in charedi-ville are capable of handling all those children. The commonness of the huge (15+) family phenomena gets me wondering about how much attention each kid receives from the parents and such. But anyway, that's not my point...
- The second (b) reason is just beyond ridiculous and I've heard it more than once. Its like "Lets have 10 kids, so if they have 10 kids and they'll have 10 kids and within a few generations we'll make up the numbers" (I've actually heard this from someone I know who is 1 of 9).
So anyway, all this "Lets get back at Hitler" stuff has got me thinking, especially since a few weeks ago at a speech on shabbos, the rabbi said how one-third (1/3, 33%) of the frummies are going of the derech.
1/3!! That's enormous. And I probably wouldn't have believed the number if it weren't for blogging, but I fully believe it.
Anyway, 1/3 is alot of people, and in the end what happens. Hitler wins anyway. Why, because the reason 1/3 of the people are going off the derech is because the rules (mostly crazy chumras) and all the social pressures really end up getting to people, and they just lose it and therefore change their religious affiliations.
- the "at risk" people I've spoken to (the ones that went from frummy to modern- not exactly "off the derech") all had issues with girl/guy taboo, and hated the pressure to conform to every little thing.
- 3 girls from my HS that I know of, I kinda keep in touch with one, and she is best friends with another, and the third is a friend of my best friend. They all hated the pressure of HS. Hated how they were expected to only achieve at being "mothers" (which is fine for some women but not all).
Now, what happens when 1/3 of the people are "off the derech"? You have Rabbi's ban more things, and you have more people question why their neighbor/friend/family member chose NOT to be Jewish. But instead of answering the questions, you have Rebbeim make outright ridiculous claims, and HS principals make wack job remarks.
Where does this lead us? This leads us into labeling ourselves even more (isn't Litvish/chassidish, ashkenaz/sephard enough? atleast those have basis!), and then leads to more questioning amongst kids (why do they do that, or not do that) which only leads to dumb responses by Rebbeim (ie, immodesty leads to Israeli terrorism- "awearness") or something of the sort.
And then the Rebbeim go on and flaunt how many people they put ON the derech. "Look, Oorah made x amount of people frum" or "that particular kiruv HS has so many girls becoming frum each year, it must be working!"
Dude...its NOT working. if a 1/3 of the ALREADY frum people are going off the derech, that only shows that the system is NOT working.
Think of it as a business, when you try to expand on your customer base, you ADD things to the menu, you don't rid them (unless they're not profitable), you want to ensure that your current customers continue on coming as well. So why would you do anything to hurt them?
But Rebbeim don't get that. Rebbeim are so used to not thinking about consequences that they can't help but focus on the high "BT" rate.
Worry about whats in your own community before you worry about others. Raise your own kids, and educate your own community before you reach out to others. Or else you'll end up with a 1/3 off the derech rate, and a BT rate that doesn't nearly come close to making up those numbers.
In the end. 9 kids ain't gonna matter if you don't raise them to want to remain frum. it won't matter if you have 15 kids or 25 kids, because at the end of the day, the percentages speak louder. Rabbi's should teach parents to raise kids as opposed to teach parents how to invite their non-frummy neighbor for shabbos.
It shouldn't be about Hitler winning. Its all quality over quantity. If you've got crappy quality, Hitler wins anyway.
20 comments:
When I saw the title, I thought it was about Obama.
Actually, if it's about repopulation, then even if they go off the derech, we still win because it's 6 million Jews, not 6 million frum Jews.
Hitler wins because the system is a Nazi system. If you don't conform, if you're different, if you're not like us, you're dead.
frumskeptic, you really ought to venture out into the non-frum world sometime. People are less stupid out here.
moshe- non-frum people have a ridiculously high assimiliation rate. its definitly above 50%, meaning, Hitler really does win.
candy man- I'm a BT, I've dealt with stupid before I was frum. Its no different out there.
My manager said the other day how she voted for Obama because she was worried McCain would take her Social Security and use it in Iraq.
I was speechless.
I can see people voting for Obama becuase they generally have liberal politics, but even McCain, as war-hungry as the media made him out to be, could not POSSIBLY invest her social security into Iraq. its just not possible. Totally different budget, and congress wouldn't ever allow it.
That just left me speechless. And this lady makes a 6-figure salary!!!
And on election day of the primaries one guy at my office went over to some of the ladies and asked if/who they were voting for and one was like "What do you mean, for American Idol?"
!!!!
Stupidity isn't exclusive to the frum world.
"I'm a BT, I've dealt with stupid before I was frum. Its no different out there."
stupidity not invoked in the god's name is a bit more palatable.
LOZ- not by much
moshe- I wouldn't compare Obama to Hitler.
To Carter or Clinton, I would.
So you don't believe the rumor that he's flying in militants from Darfur to wipe out the white man. ;-)
WORD VERIFICATION: disorc
I don't think it's a very good idea to dis and orc. Orcs are big and carry big clubs.
moshe- lol. No I don't. :). lol.
Anyway, 1/3 is alot of people, and in the end what happens. Hitler wins anyway.
Are you seriously equating people making a different religious choice for themselves to their being killed in the shoah?
Hitler wins because the system is a Nazi system. If you don't conform, if you're different, if you're not like us, you're dead.
What is wrong with you people! Hitler wanted to kill jews because they were Jews. He wanted to wipe out every jew off the place of the planet! A repressive frum society is not to be compared to the greatest evil that the modern world has ever known! Maybe it's because I'm a little older than you that I have a greater sensitivity to this (though it's only a 10-15 year gap), but seriously, do you have any idea of the idiocy of comparing the frum community to Nazi Germany? And the minimizing of what the nazis did by doing that?
No DYS, I was not comparing the two.
Was just saying that if you're having 10 kids just to get back at Hitler, but you don't sit around and actually pay attention to them, they'll end up assimilating and in the end, you're just NOT getting back at Hitler, because they will be lost to Judaism.
I am not at all equating assimilation to genocide, just merely pointing out that frum logic is flawed.
15 kids wow!
I heard of this famous rabbi, forgot his name, in NY who has like 17 kids
kt- 17 is relatively nothing... I've heard of a family that had 21 Never met anyone from the family, but alot of people I've spoken to confirmed being in the same grade as one of the girls, so they either met her in camp or in school. :-)
I can see people voting for Obama becuase they generally have liberal politics, but even McCain, as war-hungry as the media made him out to be, could not POSSIBLY invest her social security into Iraq. its just not possible. Totally different budget, and congress wouldn't ever allow it.
Actually, the system does allow it, and its going on now. Just not in the way she meant.
Social Security is currently running at a surplus. That is to say, more money in FICA taxes comes in than is required to pay for current retirees. The reminder is "invested" in treasury bills (which transfers the money to the general fund) but it *isn't* listed as additional debt on the usual breakdown they give.
Even when the budget was "balanced" in the 1990s, it wasn't really -- the extra money from Social Security isn't counted because it makes things look worse.
I totally agree with you frumskeptic.
Like Moshe I had thought it was about Obama when I read the title. I have many second cousins who avg. around 20 a family.
20 or more in a family. How do these people live like that? That's a real question, if anyone would like to answer.
Ichabod Chrain
"To get back at Hitler/repopulate the Jewish nation to "make up" for the 6million killed"
ive never heard ANYONE say this! but very interesting post!
umm, I wanted to say that the kind of issues you raise are actually more of a problem in the Israeli-Haredi world, especially in regards to the army- if you didn't go to the army you can't work, and even some of the Haredi leaders say some of their guys would be much better off working, but they can't go to the army, so..). But in the end there were Haredi leaders (Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman, for example) who allowed certain types of army service for certain types of guys (like 'nachal hachareidi' and types of community service that used to be restriced to Haredi girls), and it was the Haredi people who were up in arms against him for allowing it! It seems they've created more of a dmocracy then they wanted.. ..but I believe this principle of 'being led by the people' is somewhat true in this, the largest Haredi community outside of Israel, as well...
I feel like you are reading from a script...the same cliche questions asked by many confused and resentful Jews. Please, don't be ridiculous. If you have a problem with it, seek out answers from competent people.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Mother
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