Monday, November 17, 2008

Facebook Message

I just received the following from a friend of mine on facebook. It's a plea for money to help pay for a wedding for a couple in kolel:

Getting straight to the point:

I am trying to raise money. I have a friend who is getting married in a few short weeks. The bills keep piling up and they can not afford to make ends meet. Her parents and his parents are unable to help with any of the financial issues. My friend is working two jobs to pay for her wedding. She has to put down money out of her own pocket to pay for a down payment on their apartment and hall.

Her husband is sitting and learning in kollel and does not get paid. I know that many people feel that if they can not afford to live this lifestyle they should not. But this is both of their DREAMS. Both of them have struggled to become the people they are today against great odds. They are not living the kollel life because it is the thing to do they are doing it because they truly want it.

Please help them to fulfill their dream together.

I understand that people can not give a lot. Even if you can just give $10 it will add up.
I ask also if you can try to get other friends/family members to contribute as well it would be much appreciated.


Thank You


***


Ok, So i've done posts on this type of topic before, but I couldn't resist writing another, because this really irked me.


Why would this girl work 2 jobs to pay for a wedding? Shouldn't she just pass on the wedding part? If its a "Dream" you can sacrifice on flowers, a gown, a hall, a band, and everything else a wedding entails.


Any decent Rav would marry them for "free" (a suggested donation would not cost much). Having a buffet style dinner cooked by herself and a few of her friends would cost way less as well, and would allow for her and her husband to live their "dream."


The frum community has more important things to invest their money into than two young brainwashed yeshivishe idiots who think the world owes them a living.

I'm not donating anything, and I hope this economic/credit crisis the world is currently in, shows these people that learning full time is a dumb move.

I feel like what this couple needs is a huge smack, because sometimes a little childlike disciplining works wonders.

I mean seriously... I have dreams I cannot afford as well, how come no tzedakeh organization is out there to help me?

80 comments:

frumpunk said...

I'm annoyed. I have a post written that I havent posted yet on this issue, and you just basically said most of it.
Now people will just think I'm copying you if I do post it.

Child Ish Behavior said...

We have to start an Tzedaka organization to support your dreams. But first I would like one that supports my dreams. While were at it how about a sign up sheet for whomever wants their dreams fulfilled. The genie will grant any 3 of his choice.

frumskeptic said...

punk- just link me and be like 'well I had a post written before HER! but I don't want it to go to waste...I DIDNT COPY HER!"

hehe :)

childish- Ladies first :-p

sporadicintelligence said...

Can we wish for more wishes?

Mikeinmidwood said...

There is no way they are just doing the wedding to live the dream. They are doing it, so they can be excepted by the community.

The Babysitter said...

lol, I told her I'll give her 10 dollars. I had been wondering if you got the message too, and I knew you would have such a reaction.

First of all I have seen such a wedding where the couple couldn't afford it, so they had it in a shul where the whole community chipped in and made it special for them. It truly was a great wedding, but didn't feel like one at all. I would feel bad for the couple, a wedding is once in a lifetime it's allowed to be nice.

Plus, you know it does say that people should be learning torah day and night, so there's a source for kollel after all.

Also, I hadn't imagined her to be the type of person to have this view on kollel, so I figured if she's sending out the message then it must be important, that she wouldn't send it about a random person. Plus I already told a different friend I was going to chip in for a classmates vort present, so once I was in the giving mood, I figured I'd give for this too.

shavuatov said...

Hey - this is the first time I've commented here - so here goes.

I would have thought that the mosty important thing to the couple would be that they're marrying the person that they have dreamed about, their ideal partner for the rest of their lives. NOT that they would be doing all the right things, in the right way, with the right dress and right flowers and right food and right honeymoon etc etc. My mum and step-dad had a lovely wedding, at a register office (civil marriage), my mum made her own dress, my grandparents put together a buffet afterwards and the reception was held in my grandparents house (a 3 bedroom semi-detached).

They are still married 33 years later and I know that they don't miss the fact that they didn't spend thousands and thousands of pounds which took them a lifetime to pay back.

Just my thoughts, any way.

Rachel

mlevin said...

“First of all I have seen such a wedding where the couple couldn't afford it, so they had it in a shul where the whole community chipped in and made it special for them. It truly was a great wedding, but didn't feel like one at all. I would feel bad for the couple, a wedding is once in a lifetime it's allowed to be nice.”

Why are you feeling for someone not having a big wedding, but have no problem seeing them not living in a grant mansion with cooks and servants and butlers? After all, we all have only one life to live and it’s a shame to have to do it in a one bed room apartment. And I did visit people who were living on charity, donated by the community in their one bedroom apartment. It is nice. They have heat in the winter. Electricity. Hot and cold water. But it’s just not the same as living in a mansion.

“Plus, you know it does say that people should be learning torah day and night, so there's a source for kollel after all. “
Plus, you know it does say in the torah that men should be working, “in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life”

“Also, I hadn't imagined her to be the type of person to have this view on kollel, so I figured if she's sending out the message then it must be important, that she wouldn't send it about a random person.”

People deceive others all the time. There is no excuse to reward these types of deceptions with handouts.

“Plus I already told a different friend I was going to chip in for a classmates vort present, so once I was in the giving mood, I figured I'd give for this too.”

There is a difference between a vort present and giving someone who, for lack of funds, has no business getting married an elaborate wedding. What does this teach this couple? We don’t need to do anything; someone else will always pick up the slack. We could just continue live and little children. There is a reason why children do not get married, because they are too immature to be responsible on their own.

A few weeks ago, my rabbi tried to persuade me why elaborate wedding are important. He told me how in the old days, brides came with dowry and now days instead of dowry we give them a wedding and a furnished apartment.

Well, let me tell you how it was in the old days. Dowry was given in blankets and pots and sheets. Not fully furnished apartments. Young couples used to live with the parents until they were able to achieve independence.

Weddings were a way to collect money for a young couple. If you were invited to the poor wedding you gave a small gift and if you were invited to an elaborate wedding you gave an expensive gift. Even today in Russian Jewish community, you get invited to someone’s wedding, you call the place and find out from the owners/caterers how much it is costing them. Then you give a gift to cover that cost plus a bit on top. If you can’t afford to go, you don’t go and visit young couple after the wedding with a home warming gift.
Frummies, of course forgot it all. They make elaborate wedding, but presents they receive are just a fraction of a total wedding cost. I’m perplexed as to how this switch happened.

Esther Hadassah's blog said...

Totally agree with you.

AngryJew said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AngryJew said...

A friend of mine is getting married in a beautiful park. guests are bringing food. She's buying a beautiful dress (not crazy expensive wedding gown).

My point is a "nice" wedding is relative. food can be contributed, you can have it in a public area so you don't have to spend money on a hall. Music can come from an ipod or a cheap band. (My friend had 2 guitar players and it was quite lovely) You can dine on really nice plasticware and nice paper (I've seen some plasticware that looks like expensive silverware but is trashable, and paper plates that mimic fine china).

All this and you would still have a nice wedding. As long as the food's decent, the music is good, and the atmosphere is full of simcha, you've basically got a great wedding no matter where it is.

Dave said...

Requirements for a Secular Wedding:

Bride
Groom
Justice of the Peace/Member of Clergy (*)

(*) Entirely optional in states that still allow for "common-law marriage".

Requirements for an Orthodox Wedding:

Bride
Groom
Rabbi
10 Men

So I feel to see why anyone should be begging for handouts for a fancy wedding. If the important thing is the marriage, well, that part is not expensive.

Dave said...

Sigh. Fail to see even.

Clearly, I need more caffeine.

The Babysitter said...

Ok before I get back to Mlevin, I just want to clear something up.

To everyone: the person isn't asking for money to make a fancy wedding. It's for a Kollel lifestyle. Even if they were to cut back on wedding, they will still have many expenses in the future years. The bride is doing her part, by having 2 jobs to raise money to have her nice wedding. She's not collecting money for that part. She's collecting money for the Torah lifestyle - her dream!

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- which is why she should give up on the big wedding. now THAT would be a sacrafice for her dream.
unless she does that the money is going to support the wedding

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: but even if she were to give up the fancy wedding, it wouldn't be enough. So why loose out on it?

I mean the way I think about it, is like this. Now I have a certain amount of money in my bank account, I worked very hard saving up on it. But really it's not a lot of money in the big picture. It's like a tiny fraction of the cost of the house, so really it's like nothing. So why shouldn't I be able to enjoy the money now, and spend it on something that will make me happy and is worthwhile. Rather than to use it for my future house, when it will be considered nothing at that point.

The Babysitter said...

and to tie it in to the kollel factor. Why not spend the money...and then when it's time to buy a house, I won't have anything so then my parents, or whoever will help pay for the house, since I won't be able to afford it.

Kinda backwards I know. It does sound a bit lazy. But that's what I think the mentality is.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter,
people with the mentality you just described above are the very reason the frum community is currently in a parnasa crisis.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter,
people with the mentality you just described above are the very reason the frum community is currently in a parnasa crisis.

KT said...

This reminds me of someone I knew who wanted to marry her fiancee, but they couldn't afford the fee, (~$200 i think).

So they waited till they could.

Dave said...

Demonstrably, she thinks the wedding is more important than the Kollel lifestyle, because she is putting her money towards that.

If she thought the Kollel lifestyle were more important, then she would be devoting her efforts to making that possible.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: ok, you may be right.

KT: I don't think people should wait to get married, because then the person may no longer be for them, and things won't work out.

The Babysitter said...

Mlevin: "Why are you feeling for someone not having a big wedding, but have no problem seeing them not living in a grant mansion with cooks and servants and butlers?"

cause that's different, one is a common standard, and one is a luxury.

"Plus, you know it does say in the torah that men should be working, “in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life”"

You are right about that, I absolutely agree. It's just there's 2 sides, and people find different ways to compromise them.

"People deceive others all the time."

True, I am aware of that. But I suppose I like to think that friends I know and trust aren't deceivers.

"What does this teach this couple?..."

Funny I should read this after I made my comment about my mentality. But your right.

Interesting, I hadn't know that it was like that beforehand. But I do remember stories about dowries and stuff. But I didn't know that the girls are supposed to pay for the wedding.

I actually was really shocked to find out how much an average wedding costs. I was talking about it with my father one shabbos, I forgot the amounts he said, but I had thought it costs at most like 5,000, I had no clue it could cost so much more, I almost felt bad for the fact that someday in the future I will have a wedding.

The Babysitter said...

Dave and FrumSkeptic: who knows, perhaps she won't be having a fancy wedding, and perhaps it really is going to the kollel lifestyle. It doesn't say in the letter that she plans on having a fancy wedding.

I know other people that were in this situation, and had to go collecting, didn't have fancy weddings, maybe they take for granted that you understand it will be a simple charity kind of wedding.

mlevin said...

Babysitter - if you lose someone because you are waiting to get married then this match wasn't a good one to begin with. I would think you'd rather find out early then after the wedding... especially if there are children involved.

Anything beyond a shmota with four palls and two witnesses is a luxury at the wedding. And luxury is a luxury be it flowers, catering, bride's dress or a mansion.

Hashem said men must toil for their food. That means work. Learning torah day and night does not mean whole day and whole night. A few minutes during the day and a few at night would suffice. Men who claim otherwise are lazy thiefs and they keep their women ignorant and in slavery.

The Babysitter said...

Mlevin: Perhaps, but it could be it was a good match at that time, this is based on the theory of a person having 7 matches based on their level. So if you wait, then you might not be meant to marry that person anymore, cause one of you may have changed, not that the person became horrible or anything, just wasn't right for you at that time anymore.

Your right about the luxuries, technically speaking. But still weddings in halls are more common, forgot the luxurious factor. What if the person were to be extremely embarrassed of their poor status, so they want a normal wedding to fit in.

Well there could be 3 ways to translate it. You can say a few minutes in the morning and a few minutes at night are enough. Or you can say it means litterally the whole day and night. It says about R' Yochanon Ben Zakkai, that he was the first to come to the bes medrash and the last to leave, and he didn't sleep in there, so he was there constantly learning.

Or you can translate it to mean, that the man goal, the primary focus should be wanting to learn, but since one has to support their family they have to work too, or do anything they need to do, but in the free time they should want to learn, that is the way I like to look at it.

Dave said...

But still weddings in halls are more common, forgot the luxurious factor. What if the person were to be extremely embarrassed of their poor status, so they want a normal wedding to fit in.

Then that tells me that they value "fitting in" more than they value the Kollel lifestyle.

Everything in life is tradeoffs. If you tell me you value a healthy life, but eat too much and never exercise (something I'm guilty of far too often), what you tell me is that you value food and indolence more than health.

Watch what people do, not what they say.

mlevin said...

Babysitter - if we follow that opinion, them men must constantly learn. That means that sleeping is assur. That means that going to the bathroom is assur. That means that going to simchas is assur. That means getting married is assur. Basically, if one follows that translation and does anything than learn ever he is commiting a sin.

I DON'T THINK SO

The Babysitter said...

Dave: I think you might be right in that, but still I would imagine it's hard. Since I know I don't plan on being in such a situation, I pity them and want to help them out, cause I know I have the "better life".

Mlevin: that's why I said I believe in the 3rd one, and that's the most common one. You learn in your free time. Free time is after you take away bathroom and sleeping time and whatever else time you need.

Dave said...

Since I know I don't plan on being in such a situation, I pity them and want to help them out, cause I know I have the "better life".

One thing that would help a great deal (not just for them, but for many more people) would be for the giant wedding to stop being "normal".

No halls. No shmorg. Not to mention the "pre-wedding" events which keep getting larger and more expensive.

A small wedding. Perhaps a dinner one night with the bride's family (at their house, cooked by them, not catered, not a big eventm, and only for immediate family and grandparents). A dinner one night with the groom's family (likewise).

The Babysitter said...

Dave: you have those dinners by the sheva brachos. Your idea sounds okay, except, again, a wedding is supposed to be a special night, your supposed to make the bride and groom happy, that they should feel special, part of doing that is make a nice ambiance. They are considered Kings and Queens at that time, they should be treated royally, that it makes it different from any other meal. Not that it should go overboard, and be a million dollars. But it should be more than a regular night out.

Dave said...

Your idea sounds okay, except, again, a wedding is supposed to be a special night, your supposed to make the bride and groom happy, that they should feel special, part of doing that is make a nice ambiance.

If it takes a party to make your wedding special, you probably shouldn't be getting married. In fact, of all of the things I can think of that shouldn't be dependent on external validation, marriage is almost at the top (*).

(*) Having children is at the top. Doing it to make other people happy is just a bad plan.

The Babysitter said...

Dave: I never heard of people having children to make other people happy, sounds weird.

But your right, of course, the marriage itself is what counts. But still, the bride and groom may be nervous. Just like when you go to a dentist, the main point is to get your teeth checked and fixed, but yet it can make kids nervous to go to the dentist, so it's better if they have a nice waiting room and some toys for the kids to play with, to distract them from what's to come.

Of course marriage isn't supposed to be painful, but it still is a scary thought, that you are becoming committed to this one person. I was never in that position so I don't know. But I know my best friend was really nervous before her wedding and was constantly calling me up.

Dave said...

But still, the bride and groom may be nervous. Just like when you go to a dentist, the main point is to get your teeth checked and fixed, but yet it can make kids nervous to go to the dentist, so it's better if they have a nice waiting room and some toys for the kids to play with, to distract them from what's to come.

If you have to be distracted to get married, again, you probably shouldn't be getting married.

Moreover, it can lead to something worse. If you don't think it's the right match, you shouldn't get married. But if the hall is hired, and the food and music and photographer are all paid for, and all the invitations are out, well, people may well decide that they have no choice after that expense but to go through with it.

The Babysitter said...

Interesting point. But there's such a thing as good nervousness, like flutters in your stomach. Like your just so excited and happy that it makes you nervous. Not that you need the distractions to get married, but it helps calm them.

Plus, tell me this, if you see a poor person with torn clothing, that smells and just doesn't give out a healthy aura, would you treat them the same as one who looked respectful?

Maybe that's a bad example, but I mean to say, the environment changes the way people act. It's psychological. If the wedding has a nice atmosphere people will be happier and then make the bride and groom happier.

Ok dunno how to explain it all, perhaps it's just in my head.

Dave said...

If the wedding has a nice atmosphere people will be happier and then make the bride and groom happier.

Might be nice. But it certainly isn't necessary.

And, like almost everyone, I don't have the resources to do everything "nice" that I want. So I pick and choose.

Getting back to the subject, clearly this "nice" wedding is more important than the Kollel lifestyle that the couple profess to care so much about.

frumskeptic said...

I haven't ever heard the theory of 7 matches, I have issues with it, but I wont get into it here.

"So if you wait, then you might not be meant to marry that person anymore, cause one of you may have changed, not that the person became horrible or anything, just wasn't right for you at that time anymore."

The reason people don't grow apart in a marraige is because in a marraige they grow together. Each and every decision they make officially affects someone else, and they ahve no choice but to compromise and do things with the other person.

If the couple is not married, in the frum world this is more common, they do very little together that actually requires compromise or "growing together."

If one has to wait to get married, for whatever reason, they wouldn't grow apart if they acted a little bit more "married" or in this case, like non-frummie jews act when they're in a relationship.

You do things together other than sit in hotel lounges sipping soda, or eating at semi-decent restaurants while you're way to over dressed.

frumskeptic said...

and about the wedding, each person has their own taste. There are plenty of "rich" or even "comfortable" people who would be very happy to settle for a BBQ in the backyard (infact I know a girl like that). Frum people pressure tehm too...I have a freind like that, who wants to just have a BBQ, but she knows its never going to happen.

Poor people are poor. THeres nothing you or I can do about it. You can't go out and save all the world. There's only 10% of maaser, and 20% tops that one is allowed to give. YOu have to prioritze on how you give. In my opinion idiot kolel dreamers who throw money out at a wedding is a NO!

Esther Hadassah's blog said...

Drumskeptic I meant I agree with everything you stated.... I don't agree with mlevin.:)

Jessica said...

Other than her putting a down payment on the hall, I don't see anything about the wedding itself. There are small halls. She is not necessarily saving up for some huge, extravagant wedding. In the original message that FS and Babysitter received, does it say that they plan on having a big or even "normal" (not normal as in what the norm is these days, but normal as in not too big, not too small) sized wedding?

The Babysitter said...

Jessica: it said exactly what FrumSkeptic copied into the post.

I was also thinking that perhaps it won't be such a big wedding.

frumskeptic said...

oy vey...it doesnt matter what the size of the wedding is...she shouldn't be having one. Definitly not in any sort of hall, whether its big or small.

If you can't afford something, dont do it. You're certainly not entitled to it. This isn't an issue of shelter or surival.

Damn it already, the US got the entire world into a frikkin credit crisis cuz they gave paupers loans they KNEW they would not be able to afford, why the hell are the damn frummies trying to further the crisis!?

OY vey...I tell ya...I feel like a lone duck (well, theres a few who agree here, so I'm not so lone afterall).

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: so you agreed with the theory that they change when they don't have a chance to grow together through marriage?

Your right about the wedding part. So long as it's still nice, and not meant to be just a wedding to get over it. It's such a man thing to not care how the wedding is. After all their not into the design of stuff. Hence my chiddush in my post .

Your right, you can't give to anyone. So only the people I know personally or through personal people are the ones I give to on an individual basis. Plus I'm not so good with the maaser anyways, never figured out if it's a requirement on woman or not. So I figured I have to give anyways, so here's an opportunity. Your entitled to choose not to give to them if you don't want.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: "she shouldn't be having one. Definitly not in any sort of hall, whether its big or small."

That's not nice!

Ok, I can understand not to have many kids if you can't afford it, I'll give in to that, but not to stopping people from getting married because they can't afford it! What if they will never afford it? why deny them the happiness?

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- I agree that you grow in marraige. I also think you CAN grow together while you're dating. IF you take away all the socail taboo and the acting, you've got a nice recipe for a happy and healthy relationship...until you can afford the few men and small suedah!

"What if they will never afford it? why deny them the happiness?"

I want to get maried in the Waldorf-Astoria. Will you pay for that? No, I don't think so.

Its all relative.

Its NEVER EVER going to be fair. THe happiness is IN THE MARRAIGE. THE MARRAIGE ITSELF. If the wedding itself will play such a large role, as Dave said, you just aren't getting married for the right reasons, or just aren't ready to be getting married.

you're NOT entitled to a wedding. Nor are you entitled to anything other than basic shelter and food. If you're jealous, read a self-help book. Don't concern people with your problems.

I LOVE rich people. They give me something to aspire to. I however, do not feel one ounce of jealousness, because I'm happy, even though I can't afford a butler and maids and a cook.

i find a way to deal with it.

This girl isn't starving, and she's choosing a life of poverty.

I especially don't care.

If he were atleast in the process of getting a job, I'd feel some pity, these two buffoons are CHOOSING poverty.

There's just NO room for niceness.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: "you've got a nice recipe for a happy and healthy relationship"

But the problem with that is that it may lead to the breaking of Shomer Negiah rules.

I mean the happiness of marriage, not how it's obtained.

But really if you want to get married in the Waldorf Astoria I wouldn't mind in helping to chip in :-)

Right, so when I commented before I meant just the actual marriage, you do need a wedding to get married, whatever type it may be.

"...I however, do not feel one ounce of jealousness, because I'm happy"

that's good, I'm the same way. I actually had fun in one of my phil classes when my prof was talking about what happiness was. I brought in the posuk about a rich person being one who is happy with what they have, then we learned a about a philosopher who actually said that.

You know what I think I'm just gonna have to finally write a post about my view on Kollel, cause so far I've shown a lot of mish mash stuff, I'll have to organize my thoughts and explain it better so that maybe it can make sense.
that's good

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- you're to cute. The average starting of the Waldorf Astoria wedding is $100,000.

Goodluck chipping in for that. lol.

I've gotta go do s/t, Ill respond to the other stuff later. :)

Dave said...

Ok, I can understand not to have many kids if you can't afford it, I'll give in to that, but not to stopping people from getting married because they can't afford it!

Of course they can get married.

The bride. The groom. The rabbi. A Minyan. This is not an expensive proposition.

Everything beyond that is "want", not "need", and they have chosen to not be able to afford wants.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: Thanx, but you know every penny counts, just like every vote counts.

later then...

Dave: ok...I agree! I suppose. That is the basics. So long as they can get married then I'm happy.

Ok, I know I've like come a full circle, I guess the whole time I was trying to put myself in their shoes. Now I looked at it as an outsider.

Mikeinmidwood said...

I havent made it through all the comments, forgive me.

To the babysitter mainly

A fancy wedding is not needed. Hakol Hevel. Which is why I think they are only doing it to be excepted by the community. Ha I am comment 50.

David said...

"Her husband is sitting and learning in kollel and does not get paid. I know that many people feel that if they can not afford to live this lifestyle they should not. But this is both of their DREAMS."

No, it's not their DREAM. It's her DREAM. His dream is to sit on his worthless ass and be supported by a woman. If it were his dream to have a nice wedding, he'd go earn some money.

Just yesterday, I was visiting my sister in Baltimore. A guy in a fancy black hat and kapota knocked on the door. He had purchased tickets to fly from Israel (where he was taking up space and breathing valuable oxygen) so he could go begging door to door in America in order to pay for his wedding. (She did give him a modest sum).

I share your irritation. It's one thing to help a person who can't work; it's quite another to help someone who won't.

Lion of Zion said...

"My friend is working two jobs to pay for her wedding."

and exactly how many jobs is her חתן working to pay for the wedding?

in my list of צדקה priorities, הכנסת כלה is way at the bottom

if they can't afford a wedding then how will they afford married life? donating to הכנסת כלה perpetuates poverty and ensures that the couple will becomes a permanent drain on the larger community.

Jessica said...

If they can't afford it, they shouldn't get married?
Hm.... guess I never should have gotten married either... It is not often that the bride and groom pay for their wedding and all of the expenses after their married. FS, you've started dating already, right? And you make enough money to pay for (even a small) a wedding, apartment, furniture, etc? If not, then by your logic you should stop dating and wait until you're older and are more established. She's paying for her wedding and made a down-payment on an apartment... She seems to be doing her part, but like LOZ said, what is he doing? Maybe the problem isn't that she shouldn't be getting married (she seems mature handle the bills), but that she shouldn't be getting married to this guy.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica:
I didn't mean shouldn't get married I meant shouldn't have a wedding. but generally I woudlnt date someone who I wouldn't be able to afford a life with (rent,food,bills etc).

plus parents affording a wedding is the same thing as you yourself affording it. they're ur parents, if they choose to pay its good for u.
these ppl don't have parents wlling to help or a job. they should NOT have a wedding of anything more than the bare minimum.
I their shoes I'd wait to get married till I had a decent job to afford expenses. wouldn't even bother with the wedding

Dave said...

FS, you've started dating already, right? And you make enough money to pay for (even a small) a wedding, apartment, furniture, etc?

I may be missing something here.

Assuming you aren't planning a big wedding, why is it assumed that a marriage requires external funding?

frumskeptic said...

Jessica- also...i don't believe a couple should get married if they can't afford the expenses. parents don't help after wedding ..thats even IF they choose to help with that.

I don't believe in those marraiges in which neither is working and the parents are stuck with the bills.

its ur marraige. ur parents have their own

jessica said...

dave - Are you married? Unless you plan on having the very basics at your wedding (Bride, Groom, Rabbi, 10 Men) like you wrote before, you will most likely need "external funding". I have never met anyone who was not either on a second marriage or on a first marriage but over the age of 30 that didn't need some help financially with the wedding.

FS - you're right, parents don't have to help and in the case of this girl, they're not. "these ppl don't have parents wlling to help or a job. they should NOT have a wedding of anything more than the bare minimum." Who says they're not? And this girl IS paying for her own wedding.
Look, I understand that you don't agree with the kollel lifestyle, but this is her money. She can do with it what she wants. No one says you have to give money to her, so those people who want to help her fulfill her dream, let them because it's their money to do with as they wish. I really hope that you never come to the point in your life when you have to ask for money from other people, but have you even tried to put yourself in her shoes?

frumskeptic said...

she cannot afford basic bills! she has better use for the money. this has nothing to do with him being in kolel.

its a complete waste of money. and its a complete waste of maase for ANYONE to give to her. she clearly cannot prioritize.

what happens a month after the wedding when she gets more bills? or about a yr later when the baby comes? she going to parade more and ask for more money?

oh..and the fact that she needed to pay for a hall. proves its not a basic wedding. u can get married in a shul...for free.

Dave said...

Jessica:

Yes, for coming up on 17 years. And we did in fact do the "minimal wedding" (the two of us, an officiant).

We also paid the rent on our apartment, paid for our own furniture, our own bills, our own clothes, our own food, and so on.

And I got married at 21.

Jessica said...

FS - No, you have to pay for a shul to get married in it. I can attest to that.
It's easy to say what she should be doing, but like I said before, you haven't really put yourself in her shoes. I came into my marriage with very little money -- not even enough for one months rent and there was nothing that would stop me from marrying my (now) husband. But I also know that if my parents and his parents couldn't afford to make us a wedding, my friends would have been out there doing the same thing this girls' friend is doing for her. The girl isn't the one sending out this plea for monetary help, it's her friend.

dave - I know no matter how I say this it's going to come off sarcastic, but I really mean it. I'm happy that you had such an easy time financially... but most people don't when they first get married and do need outside help. Even if it's not from asking for tzedaka from the frum community. There are things like WIC, Healthy Start, etc that some people just need for a year or two until they can afford to be financially independent.

Dave said...

dave - I know no matter how I say this it's going to come off sarcastic, but I really mean it. I'm happy that you had such an easy time financially... but most people don't when they first get married and do need outside help.

Where did I say we had it easy financially? I said we paid for our own things, the two are not the same. We didn't take our honeymoon until our 10th anniversary.

And yes, when disaster struck a few years later (collapse of the sewer line in a house we never should have purchased) we did get help from our family, and we were very fortunate in that.

But we weren't going to our family for luxuries, or for our day-to-day expenses. If you cannot afford to pay for your actual living expenses (food, shelter, bills, clothing) as a couple, then no, I don't think you are ready to get married.

frumskeptic said...

dave- totally agree with u.

Jessica- I don't date guys who have no income because in my eyes they're not ready to get married.
had I wanted kollel I wouldn't date until I had income.

I would never be in youror her shoes because who I date prevents that problem.

Jessica said...

dave - Can I veer off topic for a minute just to ask a personal question? You were 21 when you got married. So, had you graduated college by then and had a good enough paying job or what? Student loan?
Of course you're under no obligation to answer, I'm just so curious how people so young could be totally financially independent (whether it's easy or hard).

Jessica said...

FS - It's fine to think that, but you seem like you're trying to convince other people that they shouldn't give this girl money because you don't feel she should be getting married. You can't control how people use their money no matter how much you want to.

And just for the record, I love your blog and spend way too much time commenting on it! lol

Dave said...

Can I veer off topic for a minute just to ask a personal question? You were 21 when you got married. So, had you graduated college by then and had a good enough paying job or what? Student loan?

I went to college when I was 16, putting myself through school on a combination of work and scholarships. No loans, and tuition was very cheap in those days (~$450 a semester, inclusive of everything, books cost almost as much).

I took a year off when I was 19 to work full time and build up more money, and ended up never going back.

So by the time I was married I'd been working professionally for 4 years, and full time for 2.

I don't recommend that particular path -- college is more expensive and more of a requirement these days.

Lion of Zion said...

JESSICA:

"those people who want to help her fulfill her dream, let them because it's their money to do with as they wish"

you're not looking at this from a macro level and considering the drain these expectation put on communal resoueces.

"I really hope that you never come to the point in your life when you have to ask for money from other people"

me too. but you're confusing needing צדקה ab initio with needing it post facto.

"If they can't afford it, they shouldn't get married?"

no one says they shouldn't get married. just that they should wait until they lower their lifestyle expectations or otherwise get their financial affairs in order.

"It is not often that the bride and groom pay for their wedding and all of the expenses after their married."

a) neither i nor any of my friends (with one exception) were supported by family after getting married. as far as wedding expenses, most did get extensive help, but not all.

b) i'll bet your parents (or at least the parents of most of your friends) never got this level of support from their families. how do you think they managed?

"There are things like WIC, Healthy Start, etc"

money doesn't grow on trees, even when it's money that the government spends. it is not the role of government (i.e., taxpayers) to serve as a springboard to start a family.

jessica said...

dave - ah... you took the path that I actually had wanted to take. I wanted to get my GED at 16 and start college but my parents weren't too happy about the idea. plus, I doubt I had the social skills at that age to cope with college.

LOZ: "no one says they shouldn't get married." Yeah, FS did say that, I just didn't feel it was necessary to use quotation marks there.
"money doesn't grow on trees, even when it's money that the government spends. it is not the role of government (i.e., taxpayers) to serve as a springboard to start a family."
I never said it was, but if people need that help, that's what it's there for.

jessica said...

LOZ: "b) i'll bet your parents (or at least the parents of most of your friends) never got this level of support from their families. how do you think they managed?"

My parents got married when they were 20 years old. My parents were not frum and were living in the 70s when college was not essential for a job. My parents both had jobs, I believe -- and they had a child within their first year of marriage. I honestly don't know if they received any financial help from their families or the government... never thought to ask. As for my friends' parents... no idea at all.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter- Sorry it took me so long...

On shomer negia- I am not going to get into that, but if you think about it, if the entire purpose of getting married quickly is so that he can touch you finally, then well... I'm not so sure about hte grounds to your wedding. Maybe u really do need to wait a few more months but his hormones made him propose faster.

And I can't wait for ur kollel post! :)

LOZ- was going to say that about communal resources. :). Not in those words, but exactly how I see it. What this girl is doing, is a total drain on society.

Thank you for writing it out. :)

Jessica-
"It's fine to think that, but you seem like you're trying to convince other people that they shouldn't give this girl money because you don't feel she should be getting married. You can't control how people use their money no matter how much you want to. "

I'm not out to control people's money. If they want to be stupid, that is their right.

There is a reason I think the way I do about this situation, and it is because, as LOZ put it, she is draining hte society of its resources. In this case she isn't just draining her parents, she is draining OTHER people. OTHER people had their brains messed with in the very same idiot institutions that are currently undergoing financial difficulties.

These people create their own problems and it pisses me off. I am PART of this darned community, and this girls darned actions WILL indirectly effect me.

My choices do not harm other people. If my parents were to kick me out of the house, I probably would put up a fight, but it woudl be their right.

When I get married, I'm not going to expect anyone, unless theres an emergency/accident, to "help" me. It will be a marraige, meaning, husband and myself. Which is why, I make the choices I make.

This girl makes choices that Do affect others.

I feel like I'm repeating myself...so I'm going to just end here.

"And just for the record, I love your blog and spend way too much time commenting on it! lol"

:)
I wish I could get back to you about the pregnancy thing, but my rabbi got back from camp, I didnt ask right away and stuff, and now i'm kinda being a child and I'm ignoring him. lol. And I dont know who else to ask!

Katie said...

Just as an interesting side note, that couple i mentioned previously happened to be medical residents (& so were in big debts).... but never asked anyone to pay for the measley $200 for a marriage license. :) Shows a bit about their character.

Jessica said...

FS - "I feel like I'm repeating myself...so I'm going to just end here."
Yeah, I think this is going to be (another) one of those times that we have to agree to disagree.

I actually looked at the fasting while pregnant post a few days ago to see if anything new had been posted. I did manage to find something (at least what I assume is the sforno you were talking about). It says "A weak or sick person, a pregnant woman, a nursing mother or a child between the ages of 3-9 who needs dairy food for his/her strength or nourishment(27) is not required to wait six hours between meat and dairy(28). An hour's waiting time is sufficient(29), provided that the person follows this procedure before eating dairy(30): He/she recites Bircas Hamazon (or brachah achronah) over the meat meal, flosses his/her teeth, rinses and cleans his/her mouth, and washes his/her hands before eating dairy." You can read it here.
I honestly can't remember much of the debate. lol. Guess I'll have to read over all the comments again... one day!

frumskeptic said...

katie- that does show something. :)
you know awesome people. :)

Jessica- That must be it. :). woohoo

jessica said...

whoops! realized I forgot to leave the URL of where I found it.
http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:8-7Kn4y45JQJ:www.seliyahu.org.il/parasha/par5757/epar57022.rtf+sforno+pregnant+meat+dairy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

The Babysitter said...

Ok, time to have fun reading where I left off.

MikeInMidwood: right, fancy weddings aren't needed. True, they might be doing it to be excepted.

Lion Of Zion: I still think Chasson Kallah is a worthy cause. Could be right now the couple is in school and can't afford the wedding, then soon they will get jobs and have money to live a married life. Just because they can't afford the wedding doesn't mean they won't be able to afford married life later on. Things change with time, they may get lucky and win the lottery, who knows.

Jessica: I agree with you, money shouldn't stop people from getting married. But still in our society when men and woman can both be the head of household, then why can't the wife earn the double salary and the husband not work? Even in the non Jewish world, there's a growing number of stay at home Dad's.

FrumSkeptic: Also, what your forgetting is a lot of times the husband sits and learns for just a few years. It's rarely more than 5 years. So after that time he can work and get a job and support his family.

Jessica: I agree with you once again.

FrumSkeptic: You know what I think is missing, not sure if you were introduced to those stories of great Rabbi's that gave up so much physical stuff in order that they should learn, to them learning was the priority. So these Kollel people are giving up on what we would call "basics" to live on the necessities and have a Kollel life.

Also, your forgetting that everything is in the hands of Hashem, there can be a person who has a job and then looses it after you get married, what then? you can't guarantee that you will always have a steady income.

Agree with Jessica again.

"And just for the record, I love your blog and spend way too much time commenting on it! lol"

Ditto that!

Jessica: It's possible to start college at 17 and finish at 20, with having graduated High School and gotten a diploma.

FrumSkeptic: no problem, right, so I didn't mean that people should get married so that they can touch. Just that if you don't get married and wait a long time then things can evolve over time if the relationship becomes a close one like married couples have, where they grow together. Part of growing and getting to know the other person involves expressing the love and devotion I would think.

lol, thanx, you just reminded me of it, I forgot about it. Maybe tomorrow I'll write it.

"If they want to be stupid, that is their right"

But you can't call it stupid, you have to judge them favorably that they have a good reason why they are doing it, and for them it's a smart decision.

But you know what, you say she's draining the society, but if you think about it, it goes like this, she gets perhaps 5 dollars from each person, if 100 people give that's 500 dollars, that can help her a lot. While each person alone is loosing 5 dollars. If people are giving they are obviously not poor, and could afford to give, their not giving up necessities. Instead of buying some junk, they give to help a friend get married, sounds like it's putting money in the right places.

Plus at the end the money is going back into the economy. If you think of the cycle, she's going to be paying for things, the workers, stores or whoever gets the money so it gets put back in. I don't see how it's a drain. While if you were to just save it in a bank account, then nothing happens to the money, and it's worse for the economy.

The Babysitter said...

now that was fun!

comment number 75, Yay!

nmf #7 said...

Coming at the end of all this- I feel bad even chiming in- as so many well thought out, excellently stated posts have been said already.

I also got this email.

I'm first going to try to be dan lekaf zechus a bit- maybe they're collecting for this new couple's future lives as well as the wedding.

After all- they need somewhere to live, food to eat, clothes to wear, and the items needed to set up a household.

But, as most people have commented- the bride put a down payment on a hall- so they can't possibly be collecting just for future living expenses.

My other dan lekaf zechus is that maybe they are trying to hide the fact that they are poor- trying to do the minimum for a nice wedding to save face. Like the Torah on tzedaka- supported in the manner of which they are accustomed to.

But again, that can be achieved by a wedding in a shul (yes, there are some that do it for free) the ladies of the community cooking, the bachurim volunteering as waiters, and the flowers/tablecloths/sundry items from gemachs.

But, even that costs a bit (gemachs may charge some fee, or the food may cost some money...)- so maybe they are collecting for that?

Anyway. I totally agree- if they can't live within their means, they shouldn't get married that way. Save the money for rent and food- much more 'worth it' in the long run.

nmf #7 said...

Oh- in my post- I said something based on a Torah precept- I could be very wrong. Please ask a posek before giving charity to those who may not "need" it according to law.
The Jewish Ethicist on Aish just had an article on a different case.
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/The_Jewish_Ethicist_-_Is_It_Charit.asp

Moshe said...

We had several very nice small weddings in my shul. There's nothing wrong with having a small wedding.

Our wedding, though in hall, had bare minimum. Wedding dress was from gmach. Music was a wedding present from one of our friends. The food was basic chicken legs. Alcohol was donated by another friend. Cost per couple was, I believe $25 and hall was included.

I never overcharge my credit cards and always pay them in full each month. If you can't afford something, it's not for you.

How is that couple planning on paying for and raising kids with the husband in kollel and wife with 2 jobs. Does she realize she'll have to take a month off to give birth?

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: she will probably be in a job like therapy where she has her own part time schedule, so she'll be able to take off. Even if not, most places give maternity leave, and it's not a problem.

Moshe said...

And both of those are unpaid. And if she ends up with c-section, it's even more unpaid time off.