Sunday, April 27, 2008

Silver Kiddush Cup

Over Yom Tov while at someones house, and waiting for kiddush to be said, our host took out a silver kiddush cup. My mom, trying to make conversation said "We don't use a silver kiddush cup at our house because we don't like the taste of the wine after metal, so we use glass"

One of the kids was like "well yea, it ends up with a metalic taste."

But her father said "Yes, thats true, wine tasters use only glass cups, but for shabbos, you're supposed to use silver."

Maybe there's a halacha I'm aware of, but I doubt it. I highly doubt one has to use silver on shabbos. Infact, if one had to use silver on shabbos, then I'd be very concerned for the members of my shul, and many other shuls, when there's a kiddush. Because not only do they not use silver, but they use disposables plastic cups, which are as far from silver as I can imagine. And this isn't just a few "modern" people in my shul, the lack of usage of a silver kiddush cup is something I've seen in many shul's.

I was so fed up already, with all the crap I heard over Yom Tov (rice checking, anti-South Park- will blog about later), that I didn't bother answering him, and believe me, with my big mouth I wouldn't have been nice with my answer either.

I hate when a chumra or minhag is given halachic status when it clearly isn't one. There is nothing more frustrating in the entire world.

22 comments:

Moshe said...

The only rule is that kiddush should, if possible, be made using a permanent, not disposable, cup. When using plastic cups, people tend to use two cup together to create an appearance of permanence.
Silver cups are also bad for wine because of their shape. Wine needs room to breath, unless you're using an aerator, which most people haven't even heard of, forget about posses.

David said...

There are various responses to this. First, the wine really doesn't have to spend much time in a silver cup-- it gets poured right into (appropriate) glass cups. Second, if you purchase a silver cup with a gold wash on the interior, it will prevent the wine from acquiring a metallic taste (although this is obviously more expensive). Finally, given the swill that most frummies use for wine at kiddush, it's hard to get too upset about what the silver might do to it.

Moshe said...

Though the wine will not acquire the taste, I have the cups with the gold wash, you'll still taste the metal while you're drinking.
As far as time spent in cup, I understood that the guy used silver throughout the meal, not just kiddush. OFS, is that what you meant?
And frummies don't just use that crap for kiddush, but during meal too. And some of them are very proud of it. If there was nothing else to drink, I'd rather drink grape juice than Kedem or similar crap.
Nauseating.

mlevin said...

Moshe/David - before criticizing Frum wines, you should read about a frum doctor in central Africa. He often has to soak raisins to create some kind of a drink for kiddush...

Moshe said...

And I'm sure it tastes better than kedem.

David said...

mlevin--

What does he soak the raisins in?

mlevin said...

He soaks raisins in water.

David said...

"He soaks raisins in water."

Oh, Yuck!

Moshe said...

Now here's a stupid question, why can't he make kiddush on bread and beer or vodka?

mlevin said...

Don't know about bread, but I wouldn't drink local beer. It's made with real human spit. Vodka does not exist in the middle of empoverish Africa.

Moshe said...

If he has sugar, he can brew stuff himself.
What's he doing in Africa anyway?
You never provided a link.

mlevin said...

He's a doctor, helping unfortunate Africans with medicine. You know the type that want to save the world.

I'm bad with names, can't remember it. Will try to google him tomorrow at work.

Anonymous said...

OFS, getting back to your post, I had so many similar experiences with people making chumrahs and minhagim into halachic equivalents that it's scarred me to this very day.

I don't understand how a minhag can be equated to a halacha. I mean I understand that it's done, but I don't understand how it can be done no matter who declares it a halacha.
An apple is still an apple no matter what rabbi says it's an orange.

Moshe, I'm not criticizing you, I just want to know if you know the answers. What kind of rule is the one you mention? If it's a minhag then it seems to me it's not really a rule. And how does using two cups create an appearance of permanence, and what do we need such an appearance for anyway?

Ichabod Chrain

Moshe said...

The reason I said rule is because I'm not sure what it is or the origin of it. Using two cups kinda makes sense to me, can't really explain why.
Btw, this is only when making kiddush for everyone. When we have a kiddush in shul or go somewhere, nobody minds when one person at the table makes kiddush for everyone using a single plastic cup.

Anonymous said...

Moshe,
Now I'm even more confused. This is sounding more and more like the chumras and minhagim that OFS was talking about.

Ichabod Chrain

mlevin said...

Moshe - doctor's name is Dr. Rick Hodes... Very impressive...

Moshe said...

Very surprising that Chabad is not interested in helping.

mlevin said...

Un-like popular opinion, Chabbad isn't everywhere. My best friend lives in Bangladesh. There is no Chabbad. Beleive me we checked.

When she was expecting, though, Chabbad allocated money to drop by on the eighth day if it's a boy. But she had a girl.

Jersey said...

Ok, quick puzzlement: anti-South Park is crap, or are you anti-South Park? I was a little confused by that. For the record, South Park is AWESOME. And I'm always right, so yeah.

frumsatire said...

Well the chumra is here to stay- even get worse- there are people who think mixed seating weddings are treife- even though thats a chumra.

I can think of 10 other more annoying things then chumras- since you don't have to listen to them.

People who decide to listen to music on their cell phones without headphones- your forced to listen to it- that is annoying.

By the way I just wrote about all the chumra and ban crap going on.

frumskeptic said...

Moshe: "As far as time spent in cup, I understood that the guy used silver throughout the meal, not just kiddush. OFS, is that what you meant?"

Honestly, I have no idea how long he kept the wine in the silver, I wasn't paying attention. But he did admit that he felt the metallic taste so it couldnt have been for that short... Though at my house, we have 2 silver kiddush cups (got as gifts),and if we stall before drinking the wine, ineither of them, we get the taste of metalic, so i have no idea. BUt we never use them anymore. Only glass. So I have no idea about the length of time.

Anonymous IC: "I don't understand how a minhag can be equated to a halacha."

I had people say "Sometimes minhag is more important than halacha" Yea, I'm sure. would love to see the source for that one.

Jersey: They were anti-South Park. I'm in love with that show, will write a post on what I mean by how annoying they were soon, hopefully.
Unfortunately I have no time to watch SPthis semester :(. After semester is over, I'm definitly going to catch up though on this season :)


Satire: Yes, the lack of headphones thing is annoying, but holier-than-thou is even more-so.
I was at a vort today, girl, BT, super smart, pretty... separate ENTRANCES for men and women!! My friend dropped me off, before I got out of the car I was like "i wanna make sure I'm in the right place" and NO woman was in sight! I was like "why are there no women?" And she was like "maybe the men are davening so you see them more" I was like "maybe, but why NO woman at all?" Then I saw a girl come in, she went around the building. I got out of car, saw there wasw a plaque "men's entrance" and then "women's entrance"
I walked to were the girl started walking, I went soooo far down, I thought I was getting lost, when I finally saw the ladies entrance...so, I'd rather listen to random music on the train then wander around searching for an entrance to a shul I'm running into for 10 minutes to wish someone a "mazel tov"

Moshe said...

Big deal, 2 separate entrances.
Girl from our shul went to Gateshead and came back a real psycho. By the reception there was an announcement that the chosson and kalla request that the men stay on their side. There were waiters walking around and physically escorting men out of the women's section! Too bad we came right before chupa. I always go to women's section because that's where the food is. For men it's a couple crappy sponge cakes and cheap, nasty booze. I'd love to see the waiter try to escort me out.