Monday, April 21, 2008

WTF?

For yom tov lunch my family went to someone's house. These people are seriously frummy, and they try so hard to be typical, that it scares me. Sometimes people are just messed up. I mentioned something Moshe said to me about my Kosher Cheeseburger post, on how he went Pesach shopping and saw Kosher L'Pesach Pizza on sale, yet no one was making a big deal, while Gd forbid Talia's Steakhouse decides to come up with this idea of a kosher (parve cheese) cheeseburger, and everyone goes banana's. Well, so I told the host that frummies are totally messed up, because there really is no explaination to the ridiculous inconsistencies in their thinking. So he was like "Well yea, you have a good point about that, they shouldn't freak out about Talia's Steakhouse if they don't freak out about kosher l'pesach pizza."

So there I was, all happy, cause in the 7ish years our families have known each other, we really never agreed. So then, I mentioned what Jessica said in the same post about Kosher Subway in Cleveland and no one flipping out about the fact that there was kosher parve-cheese there, while in Brooklyn, frummies have created an uproar. So the guy-host (who btw is my super frummy freind's dad) was like "Well,there shouldn't be a kosher subway, people not as intelligent as the ones sitting on this table may get the wrong idea if they walk in and see frum Jews ordering meats at a subway."

Now, I was like "Ok, um, What? I mean, its kinda obvious the place is kosher, everyone inside is frum, most of the guys behind the table are in kippas, I 'mean there are signs all over" He was like "well, no, its not that obvious." And there I was all annoyed.

A while later, I started a convo (with my friend, which her dad overheard,and joined into) about how Rebbeim must have think-tank like conventions (such as multi-billion dollar corporations), because there is no way to explain the BS that comes out. If you pay attention to what you learn and what your friends/neighbors learn in HS they always somehow correspond. Like if your Rabbi decides to talk about playing ball on shabbos, the halacha teacher in your neighbors school will also within a few weeks of your Rabbi giving the speech (I am aware that there is the Daf and all that, I was just making a point for conversation). So anyway, I mentioned how ridiculous it was that this year, we noticed how there was this ridiculous trend on talking about salt-water. Some Kosher supermarkets SOLD salt-water, my freinds teacher gave a class on how to make salt water (yes, this is true), and my Rabbi mentioned how one is supposed to make salt-water before shabbos (this year, specifically mentioning salt-water not food in general).

So I started discussing how we make as little as possible before the actual yom tov, because we don't like to freeze our food, and we like everything freshly made. Then I said that the Rabbi said "If you make salt water ON yom tov, you should make it differently than the way you make it on a normal day." So I said "Well, I don't know where Rabbi's come up with this stuff, considering I really do not know anyone that makes salt-water on a regular day, its pretty much exclusive to pesach sedars."

My friend's dad was like "Well, you're right no one makes salt water on a regular day, but you should make it differently than you WOULD think to make it."

I was like "Well, honestly, I don't THINK about making salt water, its a pretty menial task, I just put either salt or water in first, depending on whats easily accessible at the moment I choose to make it" So he and this boy at the table was like "well, we put in a bit of salt, then a drop of hot water..."

And I found myself thinking "WTF? These people have a system!?"

And here I am literally thinking "I need new friends"

29 comments:

Moshe said...

What's the problem with making salt water on Yom Tov? The problem is on Shabbat.

Moshe said...

One of the 39 cardinal melachos prohibited on Shabbos and Yom Tov is tanning, which includes preserving. Preparing a strong salt water solution is a preparation used in tanning and preserving. Salt water is a preserving agent, therefore, the salt water should be prepared before Yom Tov. If one has forgotten, it may be prepared on Yom Tov, but one should make sure not to put in too much salt to render it undrinkable.

If you don't use half a pound of salt, I think you're safe.

frumpunk said...

Some people you can't argue with. I spent Shabbos once by a friend with a very opinionated father. I don't remember how we got on the topic, but he was of the opinion that Hillel houses are assur and should all be shut down because he heard a story of how a boy met a non-Jewish girl at one and intermarried.
Nevermind the kiruv they do and that he couldn't give a source for it.

The people you know sound crazy though. I would have a field day there.

frumskeptic said...

moshe: gd bless you, seriously. I love sources. I am sure that my Rabbi said about Yom Tov and not Shabos. I had my mom there, and lots of other people.

Frum Punk: You don't intermarry because of Hilel...really now. These people are nut-jobs. But since you mentioned Hilel, the super frummy friend (the one this story is kinda about), actually ASKED the rabbi to not be allowed to go to Hillel so that she has an excuse when someone on campus asks her to join for a speech or activity or s/t. I was like "WAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" And she smiled and said "well, I'm uncomfortable, so if I tell the guy-apparently only guys invite her to join Hillel- that my rav said that Hillel is innappropriate, He will definetly leave me alone."

Really, she's tonz of fun, super sweet heart and everything, but she's NUTS!!!!!!!!!!

"The people you know sound crazy though. I would have a field day there."

NO doubt! lol

Dave said...

Salt in and of itself is a preserving agent. Plenty of pickles are simply salt (not salt water) and the item being pickled, the same is true for many air dried meats (including those that can be kosher).

The same logic that says you cannot make salt water would seem to imply that you cannot use salt at all.

Jewish Sceptic said...

Actually, salt water is used on a daily basis by people everywhere.

Ever made rice or pasta?
In goes the water (should be but not necessarily boiled), add salt and stir. Then you add your pasta or rice.

It's used in soup too and loads of other dishes which are liquid-based or use liquids to cook it, generally all in the boiling catagory...meat, vegetables etc.

So perhaps the salt-water rules aren't as bad as you think...?

Jessica said...

"So the guy-host (who btw is my super frummy freind's dad) was like "Well,there shouldn't be a kosher subway, people not as intelligent as the ones sitting on this table may get the wrong idea if they walk in and see frum Jews ordering meats at a subway.""

The Subway in Cleveland is in the JCC (JEWISH Community Center of Cleveland)... there is no one that unintelligent!

Moshe said...

You'd be surprised.
I did tech support, people are very, very stupid.

Jerry said...

When I read stories like this I make salt water--it comes out of my eyes.

frumpunk said...

Moshe: When I first started at the Geek Squad I asked the elder tech why he took the customer through a process in what I felt was a childish way. He fixed me with this piercing stare and said "people are stupid." I said noones that stupid. He said "Yes. Yes they are."
After 8 months I passed the wisdom onto the new techs.

I have so many ridiculous stories from that job.

The Babysitter said...

I never heard about not being able to make Salt water on Yom Tov.
About the Kosher cheese burgers, I've thought about it for a while, and I decided I take the side that are against it. Because its a tradition that you can't eat meat and cheese together, so no matter if its real cheese or not, it looks like cheese, so its a sensitivity. Besides for the fact that I don't like cheese, so even if its not real cheese I wouldn't eat it cause it looks like cheese.
About the Subway, I would say that's different because it becomes known that its a kosher branch, so there is no doubt that the person might be eating treif.

Moshe said...

frumpunk: don't you love these type of conversations:
"click on tools, now click menu item"
"it's not there"
"yes it is, it's towards the middle"
"I don't see it"
"it's right there, nth from top"
"no, I don't have it"
"ok, read the menu items from top"
"...oh, there it is!"
"yes, you $%^#$, $%^$, #$%#$, it's there, it was always there and you apparently don't know how to #$%^ read you #$%^#$% #%^&$%!"
pebkac - Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

the babysitter: so what about parve cheese cake and parve ice cream?

The Babysitter said...

About how unintelligent people can be about computers, this is my favorite one:
"Customer: can't get on the Internet.
Tech support: Are you sure you used the right password?
Customer: Yes, I'm sure. I saw my colleague do it.
Tech support: Can you tell me what the password was?
Customer: Five stars"

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: Well about Parave cheese cake, there's no issur about meat and milk there. But that I don't eat anyways for the same reason, cause I don't like cheese, so it has the name cheese in it.
Parave ice cream is no problem. There you don't see the ingredients. Like they have pretzels that are dairy and pretzels that are parave, same idea.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: Unless someone is frum, they automatically assume cheese cake actually has cheese in it. My cousins come over and are like "HOw are you eating cheesecake if you just had meat?" and we explain it to them. The name "cheese" in the cheesecake really does 100% imply the dairy cheese. Its exclusive to frummise and vegetarians.

Using your logic, if I smear margarine on my baked potato on the side of my steak, I'm doing something wrong, and ALOT of margarines are milchig...

Its like if I were to use parve sourcream on my taco...or shredded parve chedder on my taco...or parve pepperoni on my pizza...or how about during the 9 days when people make soy chicken?

FrummeYenta said...

Jesssica: So what about the kosher Pizza Hut etc. in Israel?? Or is that ok cuz it's ISRAEL?? I'd think it would be even wronger (my word :))

FS - I'll be your friend!!

(btw ppls my blog is now public I decided it would be boring otherwise)

Orthoprax said...

BS,

"About the Kosher cheese burgers, I've thought about it for a while, and I decided I take the side that are against it. Because its a tradition that you can't eat meat and cheese together, so no matter if its real cheese or not, it looks like cheese, so its a sensitivity. Besides for the fact that I don't like cheese, so even if its not real cheese I wouldn't eat it cause it looks like cheese."

So don't eat it. Though why you think your preferences gives you the right to tell other people what to do is a mystery to me.

The Babysitter said...

frumsceptic: all those things you listed are products that people know comes in something parave. I don't know how to explain it, but its like when someone does something that is usually wrong, but here its permitted, you would feel a little funny. Like when I got my wisdom tooth pulled out it was right before the fast day, so my dentist said I couldn't fast, so I was eating, but yet I sorta felt guilty for it. Although I know tons of people don't have to fast and everything but still. So its permitted, and nothing is wrong with it, but it would feel strange.

orthopax: I'm not saying people shouldn't eat the Kosher cheese burgers because of my personal preference. That was just a side point. Only the first part is my way of thinking about the reason why not to: "Because its a tradition that you can't eat meat and cheese together, so no matter if its real cheese or not, it looks like cheese, so its a sensitivity." But I wouldn't impose this logic on others. Each can do their own.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: Unless you're frum you're totally unaware of the fact that there is parve cheesecake. When I became frum, and already stopped eating meat/milk together I was STILL unaware taht tehre was parve cheesecake. When I foudn it, I did not feel weird, I was thrilled, becauseit was PARVE cheesecake. The word PARVE is key.

Just like when there is PARVE cheese, generally in PARVE KOSHER cheeseburgers, there should be NO problem. There is NO tradition behind this. There were VERY VERY few parve substitutes throughout history, now with margarine and other weird (mostly) artificially made substitues we have ALOT of parve options. Somewhere in history our ancestors lost sensitivity, so should we. Theres no place to go but up...therefore we should grow, and embrace the beauties of modern technology and food options.

2- using your logic one should not go get their wisdom teeth pulled before a fast day, because its not right if you know you shouldn't eat, yet you'll have to. Its a sensitivity.

Its a frikkin SUBWAY restuarant. Plus goyim don't know anything when it comes to the laws of kashrus, it doesnt look bad for anyone. There is no Maaras Ayin unless its a BT or ger, but tehy'd ask a Rav.

My coworker once felt guilty that a ksoher chinesse restuarant wouldnt deliver unless the order was atleast $40. I coudln't find enough peoplke to get a $40 order. So i said "ok fine, I'll go to the supermarket, and just buy something to nosh on, u guys order your regular chinesse food, don't worry about me"

So anywayz, she felt bad, called HER chinesse food restuarant-which was obviously treif, and asked them if they were kosher...

Reallly, she has NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO idea about anything, and the coworkers that knew she was being a bit ignorant were either frum,non-religious jewish, or worked in the company long enough to know the difference that they wouldnt even think negatively if they saw me eating a cheeseburger, without any kosher-restuarant logo on it, they would be like "thats so cool, whcih restuarant serves that?"

Sensitivty shmensitivity, its all fear of Maaras Ayin and assimiliating or else no one would think twice about starting uproars against perfectly kosher restuarants and their mashgiachs.

The Babysitter said...

ok I give up...you win!
I actually never knew that cheese cake was parave till I saw Moshe mention it in a comment in this post.
Your right it is a Maras Ayin issue...

Jessica said...

wronger. lol. know what's amusing? i'm using firefox and under words that it doesnt recognize it puts a little red line. under "wronger" there's no red line. awesome!

Orthoprax said...

I'm waiting until they start making in vitro bacon. It was in the paper recently. I'd give it 15 years max. And based on previously established Halachic rulings on stuff like genetic engineering, it would be trivial to start churning out kosher pork.

Moshe said...

mmmmmmm...bacon...glaaaaaaaaaah

Yehudi Hilchati said...

I'll agree with your friend's father on one point. There are many Jews who keep some level of kosher (i.e. won't look for a hechsher on cookies but will avoid obvious mixing of meat & milk and will buy kosher meat, albeit Hebrew National). Those Jews could very easily, upon seeing frum Jews eating in a Subway, think that all Subways are kosher. (I know many Jews who think like this here "out of town".)

However, the answer to that is better education of the Jewish public, not forbidding kosher Subways!

Yehudi Hilchati said...

Using your logic, if I smear margarine on my baked potato on the side of my steak, I'm doing something wrong, and ALOT of margarines are milchig...

Its like if I were to use parve sourcream on my taco...or shredded parve chedder on my taco...or parve pepperoni on my pizza...or how about during the 9 days when people make soy chicken?


That's it - anything made by Tofutti is assur!!!

ProfK said...

Assur Hillel? Why in heavens name do that? Just as one example, the Hillel house at UNLV (University of Nevada Las Vegas) runs a strictly kosher/shomer shabbos program for students on campus. They have minyanim on Shabbos run Orthodox, they serve meals to the students under the Vaad HaKashrus of LV, which is run basically by Lubavitch, have Megilla leining and run daily minyanim as well. Lots of LA boys and girls in the school who are more than thankful for the services of the Hillel house. I guess for some people assimilation is better than kiruv work. Very New Yorky attitude.

The Babysitter said...

There was a Pesach Seder at McDonalds in Israel.
http://www.thecooljew.com/showthread.php?t=1702

Yehudi Hilchati said...

I think it's time to ban Judaism. If there was no Judaism, there wouldn't be an derech for people to leave! So if we don't want people to go off the derech we should ban the derech.

Moshe said...

That's the smartest thing I've heard in a long time. ;-)
Jews should only be allowed to eat potatoes with salt and chicken. Eating anything else makes us look like goyim.