Wednesday, May 14, 2008

From the modern person's perspective...

You know how frummies constantly bash things not-so-frummy people do, or rather not do? Like when they say "Well, they eat gebrakts" with this disgusted look, as if you're on the level of a convicted criminal. Well, its about time (well, actually lately its been a norm) that frummies are actually the criminals.

Today I received a call from a family friend who is frum. She wanted to know if I heard about what happened at the Rubashkin plant in Iowa, after I told her I didn't she was like "well, this is blog material for you, and she told me all about the occurrence.

So anyway, I would just like to say how disgusting that is. It is so wrong that these frum Jews are probably the typical "holier-than-thou" type when it comes to Jewish law, but when it comes to the "law of the land" thing, which is also very important, they don't care. They tend to ignore the fact that its a huge chillul hashem to hire so many illegal immigrants, and help them hide their illegal status, by using fraudulent social security numbers.

Hmm...lemme play their game.. It isn't that girls dress untzniously that causes terrorist attacks, but rather its the ridiculous amount of cases that have been coming up lately which reflect very badly on the Jewish community (ie sex solicitation, money embezzelment, molestation by Rabbi's)... well...that kind of speaks out alot more than if the girl dresses untzniously, and it sure
bothers alot more people.

So while I do not believe that we really know anything about why there are terrorist attacks in Israel, I think its "fun" (for lack of a better not-so convoluted word) to blame frummies for once for causing the terrorist attacks!

49 comments:

Child Ish Behavior said...

Ah what's so bad so a few aliens from outer space were chopping some beef. Its not like they were slaves or anything. People should be able to hire whomever they please. Who is the government to say who is legal and who isn't? It's not like we support them with taxes or anything. Good for Rubashkin for breaking a stupid law. How many people want to pay the high minimum wage that the Democratic Party mandated anyways. And if the only way to get a fair market wage is to hire illegals. Kol Hakavod.

frumskeptic said...

I'm really against illegal immigrants.

1) They were being paid way below miniumn wage

2) We may actually be supporting them with taxes (they dont get sent away from the hospital, if they are sick).

3) While no-one wants to pay the minimun wage,that doesnt mean they should go and hire illegals. Governemnt cannot moniter people here illegally,and our borders need to be protected, if these "frum" idiots are helping these guys enter, and we don't know anything about them, they may just be dangerous.

Moshe said...

Was doing IT for a warehouse, most floor workers were illegals and they were paid $4/hour if not less.
Here's what I want to know. How come rubashkin raises prices on meat when most of the workers are paid below minimum wage?

frumskeptic said...

Moshe: B/c they can... they have no competition except for Empire, and for w/e weirdo reason, not to many ppl hold by that.

Ohh...and rabbi's basically ensure the "no competition" thing, b/c when Perdue wanted to make a kosher section, the Rebbeim told them not to,b/c it would take the frummies out of business...HA!

Sometimes I think Rabbi's are like politicians (not all of them), they take bribes (as if Rubashkin had nothing to do with rejecting Perdue offer?), and they don't really care about the people (see concert ban...)

Child Ish Behavior said...

Moshe: he shochtim union demanded higher wages.

Moshe said...

Rubashkin lost KAJ so now they don't have to pay them.
Empire is now KAJ, no reason not to buy it.
I buy from Glatt Mart, prices stay the same and meat much higher quality. And hot dogs, whichever on sale. Rubashkin meat hot dogs on sale in Paperific, $1.99 for 7.

David said...

"Who is the government to say who is legal and who isn't?"

Are you serious? I think the government has the right-- the obligation, really-- to establish rules safeguarding borders and deciding who is allowed to come to the US and under what circumstances. And, for the record, it IS like we support them with taxes-- they get hospital care from emergency rooms and send their kids to public schools.

FedUp said...

There have been sites devoted to the evils coming from the frum community. Heard of www.failedmessiah.com ? Most of his posts are about child molesting, abusive, barbaric, actions done by Rabbis and other frum people.

realistic viewer said...

child ish- who is the government to say who is illegal? Are you serious? Go try living in Australia, Russia or Sweden without proper paperwork.
Illegal immigration is not an American problem...it is a problem every where. And when my tax dollars are paying for their health care - its my problem!

fedup - Failedmessiahs mission (I think) is to show that Jews are worse then everyone else.

Frumskeptics mission is just to show that Jews are not better then everyone else.

mlevin said...

hYou are also forgeting they [illegals] are using our roads, our policing, our fire department, our water cleaning, our garbage collection in addition to everything mentioned above. Where do you think money comes from to afford all of it? Taxes. So, we work to and we pay for these services, but illegals work and don't pay for these services. Basically they are stealing from American Citizen.

Second, it is known that illegals spend as little money as posible and send the rest back to their country to support their relatives. So, they taking American money from american circulation and enriching their own country.

A third thing not mentioned here was the fact that 20% of those illegally crossing Mexican border are not even Mexican. They are criminals and terrorists. Yep, 20%.

Moshe said...

And that frummies are psychotic :-D

Guys, here's my new project, check it out and give your input

realistic viewer said...

moshe -

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/Schools.cfm?SID=76

Moshe said...

affiliation? tuition? search?
this site is more useful in that case

frumpunk said...

Thats very out of date. My high school is listed at the location it was 7 years ago. I assume the NY schools are probably more in date though.

Moshe said...

and most have information missing too

frumpunk said...

I'm talking about the one at rabbihorowitz.com btw.

Moshe said...

me too
the interface is the worst part I'd say

frumpunk said...

Its a bit cramped, the green is stupid and the search sucks, but I don't think its a badly designed site overall.

The green does disappear when you go to any other section, which is badly done but also good for the other sections. Its a bit all over the place but thats all the fault I really have with it. I like the expand bit on the main page, I'd like to know how they do that.

Child Ish Behavior said...

What exactly is the government protecting us from by not letting the worker come into the country? Are they protecting us from lower costing products? The cost of the people who use our public services are more than made up for by the low wage that they receive. And who cares if they go to American public schools, its not like the frum community is taking advantage of that free opportunity.
While your tax dollars may be paying for their health care, the same system is supporting the free riding yeshiva guys. If you are willing to suposer low cost health care for the learning of torah, why not at least support it for the people who make the fruit so cheap?

realistic viewer said...

Who is willing to support yeshiva guys? I am not willing to support free loading yeshiva guys, that is a disappointing topic in itself. And yes my school tax dollars are paying for their immigrant ass to sit in ESL. Maybe if there weren't so many immigrant student the govt would agree to deduct my kids yeshiva tuition or at least not charge me school tax while my kids are not in PS's.

Moshe said...

Me neither. Their supposed "learning" is hiking up prices for everyone else. Instead of making up bs rules and kicking out normal people, kick out everyone who's sitting on their ass, collecting money.
And the whole thing about Jews paying for public schools, don't get me started.

Child Ish Behavior said...

The immigrants learning how to speak English is an important thing. If they didn't know it, how do you tell them how hard to scrub the floors?

Fact is, everyone deserves an equal shake. How can they expect an equal shake in a backward country with no opportunity?

In reality though, if it wasn't schools that the government is spending your money on, they would spend it on something else. The government likes spending money, yours and your children's. They support schooling because this is the fad to be into.

The "illegal" workers were just taking advantage of the opportunities that are not available to them elsewhere. They are being paid what they are willing to accept. So whats the big deal?

realistic viewer said...

Fact is, everyone deserves an equal shake. How can they expect an equal shake in a backward country with no opportunity?
---

That’s not my problems, that is Gods problem.

If you take the hundreds of millions of Africans and Chinese living in poverty and spread them all around Europe and China do you think it will make those continents wealthier or poorer? The answer is poorer. That is why Arab countries don't even want "Palestinian" immigrants dirtying up their countries and sucking the wealth out of them.

I am not against all immigrants, just illegal ones. They should go through proper means and channels and earn the opportunity to be in this country.

Jews earned the opportunity to be in this country by being hated by the rest of the world, persecuted and at the same time being smart and productive enough that another country (America) wanted us. They should work no less hard for the opportunities for their children. But then again, if they worked this hard – maybe their country wouldn’t be so backwards.

David said...

"Fact is, everyone deserves an equal shake. How can they expect an equal shake in a backward country with no opportunity?"

So if their country doesn't give them an equal shake, they have a "right" to come here and demand it from us? Under what bizarre legal theory would that be true? If your mommy doesn't give you a fair shake, do you think you can demand the "right" to move to my house? Are you saying that this (or any other country) has no right to control its own borders? Do American workers not have a right to ask their government not to allow a flood of new cheap labor to come in and depress wages?

Child Ish Behavior said...

David: you'd be right if we were talking about real aliens from outer space. We are not. We are talking about people like you and me that just happened to be born in the wrong part of the house. Why should they have to stay on the toilet and not be allowed into the dining room.

Moshe said...

Muslims too? Or only Mexicans?

The Babysitter said...

frumskeptic: I sorta agree with you, one the concept that Jewish people shouldn't be taking advantage of the laws. Jews shouldn't be treating workers horribly and stuff.
But this reminds me of a Wal-Mart case. Its the same type of thing, they pay their workers minimum wage. But they have sweat shops and other horrible ways they get to sell their stuff for lower prices. But yet, there are still many Wal-Mart's around and people still buy there.
Plus they said that Iowa was a deserted place beforehand, and now they built up the place because of the factory. Also, isn't it better that the illegal immigrants are kept busy with jobs rather than stealing and causing other harm.
Child ish behavior brought up a good point, that we aren't supporting them with are taxes. Once illegal immigrants come, they are still illegal and therefore do not deserve what is legally required for others. Like if someone makes a contract with another person to steal a car. Stealing a car is illegal and therefore the contract is void. So same here, the immigrants came here illegally therefore the we shouldn't have to pay them minimum wage and stuff.

Moshe: I thought Glatt Mart had expensive prices. But I did hear they have good quality. I actually know the person who works behind the counter in the meat department.

Mlevin: that is a good point.

What if we put ourselves in their shoes? This reminds me of after the holocaust, Jews weren't allowed into certain countries. Now when things were horrible in Europe and Jews couldn't escape, wouldn't it have been better if they were allowed into other countries.

But this whole discussion is in a way hypothetical. Because first the issue was the unfairness of the illegal immigrants being paid below minimum wage, as if there is care for the immigrants. Then it became how its unfair how the immigrants are taking away from our resources.

Moshe said...

babysitter,
family pack of lamb stew is $3.50/lb though hard to catch.
meat with bones, often has flanken there, $3.99/lb
Friday afternoon most meat is $1 off, $3.99/lb meat is $.50 off.
cheap chicken thighs usually.
bread, seltzer and a lot of other stuff cheaper than mountain fruit.
pretty good specials

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: I've never really had to shop for meat, or if I did I just bought it without looking at the prices, so I dunno what the price is supposed to be. But sounds good to me.

David said...

"We are talking about people like you and me that just happened to be born in the wrong part of the house. Why should they have to stay on the toilet and not be allowed into the dining room."

Because this isn't their country, and the people of this country are entitled, through their representatives, to make the immigration policies that suit them.

Don't turn my dining room into a toilet.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: I don't mean to be picking on you, I just do not have that much time to respond to all the other comments (mostly geared to child..).

Most of the stuff you hear about Wal-Mart is totally exaggerated. There are no legal sweatshops in the US -and with all the investigation going on abotu wal-mart, there definitly aren't illegal once that wal-mart is involved with.

Anyway, About the illegals being occupied with their jobs... No, they shouldn't be here to begin with. My parents, as well as many of my friends parents, and even some of my friends had to go through immigration, and it sucked. THey had to work hard for their money...LEGALLY!

My shul's "mexicans" are all here legally..and our cleaning lady is here legally.

it seems that you and childish behavior tend to forget that many of the illegals are actually dangerous, and we do provide them with alot of funds. If this were from a solely economic standpoint, I would even consider making immigration and H-1 visa's easier to obtain, so that these people can come and work- but allowing them to remain here illegally and not persecuting them for coming here is terrible. Especially in the time of war when we have terrorists trying to blow us up ?

Moshe said...

child and babysitter,
btw, my half-sister finally received a visa after 10 years while illegals are coming in every day!

The Babysitter said...

Frumskeptic: I watched a video in my Phil class about Wal-Mart and it does seem to be bad, but then your right, its not within the US. The Sweatshops are in China, so I guess that makes it better?

Frumskeptic and Moshe: I agree with you, it should be done legally. Your right, its unfair for some to take the easy way out and come illegally, while the good people who are doing it legally have to wait forever. Its like that with a lot of things. Not just immigration. That's like if people are online at a supermarket and one person cuts in, then all the other people behind them who were waiting on line the right way now have to wait longer, which isn't fair.

Frumskeptic: So if we are afraid that they are dangerous, then wouldn't the police or FBI take care of them like any other person that is dangerous? If anything because we are afraid that their dangerous we would take more caution to check them out.

Just to be clear on all this, What happens in the US when they find an illegal immigrant? they send them back?

mlevin said...

Babysitter - Yes, Jews weren't allowed into most countries, but these people are not running away from oppression. In fact this country does give a refugee status to those who are running away from oppression.

Also, this country allows people to enter from debilitating conditions. My cleaning lady said that she has new neighbors, straight from Turzhikistan. It is so bad there that 54,000 children died last winter from lack of food and heat. So, good old USA issued extra visas/green cards to allow more people to come here. And these people did come, LEGALLY.

Those who are here illegally are breaking a law. Meaning they are criminals. We shouldn't defend them, we shouldn't provide them with schools and roads and police and fire department... We should throw them all out like they deserve.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: "The Sweatshops are in China, so I guess that makes it better?"

I Am looking for an article I read in forbes (if don't post now, will after shabbos) about child-labor and low wages in India. Apparently it is inevitible... I didn't fully agreee, but its Forbes and they know what they're talking about, and as long as US corp's try to maintain it, we're atleast doing as best we can.


"I watched a video in my Phil class about Wal-Mart and it does seem to be bad, but then your right, its not within the US. "

You have to take into consideration your phil professor is a psycho-nut left-wing anti-large coorporation person. I wrote a paper for my cousin, used multiple sources, and it really isn't THAT bad. I'll try and find it.

"So if we are afraid that they are dangerous, then wouldn't the police or FBI take care of them like any other person that is dangerous? If anything because we are afraid that their dangerous we would take more caution to check them out. "

Thats the point, without a SS# or a visa, its as if they aren't here. How can our intelligence agencies track them? If they're here illegally its a safety hazard. Don't think the FBI doesn't try and go after them. Thats why people who smuggle illegals across borders get into deep trouble (dunno exactly what, but its major), and the illegals get sent home.

The Babysitter said...

Mlevin: ok, that makes sense. That is true.

Frumskeptic:(Well my Phil professor only brought it up to show us the two sides. We actually had our final today, and I remember the essay question was about this, about social responsibility, not illegal immigration, but sorta the same idea with the working conditions and stuff. So Milton Friedman says that corporations are just for profit and there is the stockholder theory, where they only have a responsibility towards their shareholders. While R. Edward Freeman says there's the stakeholder theory, where anyone who has a stake in the company they have a relationship with and therefore have a responsibility to. So I agreed with Friedman that it isn't the corporations jobs to build play ground and take care of other social needs of the community, that that's what the government is for...so we didn't just learn left wing stuff, we learned stuff favoring corporations also)

its ok, don't worry about finding the article.
ahh I see now what you mean by danger.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: Something I learned, even before college, is that college professors are never unbiased. They alwasy have this way of convincing you that Rich people are evil, and corporations hate poor-people. Its sad.

Half the stuff on wal-mart is nonsense. Liberals have nothing better to do. without kids its like "hmm, the dog is fed, its walked, I cleaned the bird cage, now what?" Oh yea, lets kvetch about Wal-Mart and big corporations and how they don't pay anyone!! b/c its either kvetch about wal-mart paying low wages or kvetch about how wal-mart is polluting the world. And, there are plenty that do that, but not too many professors know enough to discuss air-pollution.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter: forbes article link posted in a new post

The Babysitter said...

Frumskeptic: Air pollution was another concept on the test, and I agree with you, I just saw it is kvetching, I didn't see a point in having to learn about how these corporations are polluting the environment and that we have to consume less otherwise its using up the resources...It might be part of believing that Hashem runs the world and He made it so that we can exist in it, and if they say 40% of oxygen is being used up, and that's from 6 thousand years already, then the other 60% won't get used up within 20 years. So there's no need to worry about Global Warming and all the Green stuff.

The forbed article, was the one from the Gazzete thing?

The Babysitter said...

ahh I see now the post with the Forbes article. Never mind.

frumskeptic said...

yea..its a bit long... sorry.

The Babysitter said...

oops, I meant never mind to my previous question. Cause before I asked, if it was the gazzete link, but then I saw the new post and realized that it wasn't the link. I didn't mean never mind to the post/article.
In other words, no need to be sorry.

realistic viewer said...
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realistic viewer said...

CRAZY STUFF link here

realistic viewer said...
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realistic viewer said...
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realistic viewer said...
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frumskeptic said...

babysitter: I cannot find the walmart paper. :(

The Babysitter said...

o, well, that's ok.

I'm sure it was a good one.