Monday, August 11, 2008

Fasting while pregnant

One of the most annoying things in the world is the fact that there are women who listen to men about feminine things. What am I talking about? Women who fast while pregnant because the Rebbeim say they should.

Rebbeim are a bit delusional in my opinion when it comes to pregnant women fasting. I can't quite grasp the logic. A woman that is pregnant CAN bend on many rules. She can eat milk after eating meat with a much shorter wait in between. A pregnant woman, is responsible for the life inside of her. She has to ensure the baby has the nutrients it needs, and the hydration to take away the toxins from her and her baby.

It is common knowledge that after Tsha B'av and Yom Kippur there are many premature births. This cannot possibly be a pro-fasting sign, or can it? Well, in the frum world, anything could be considered a good sign.

Ladies, if you're vomiting blue juice, don't be dumb, break your fast, especially if you're pregnant. Forget the Rabbis. Until they get ovaries and a uterus and bleed every month for a few years on schedule, they're not exactly the greatest advise givers.

104 comments:

~Lady E~ said...

It's when i hear about pregnant woman fasting that the saying "common sense isnt so common" comes to life. As if a woman, on yom kippur, can do teshuva while vomiting, feeling awful, and laying in bed.

frumpunk said...

Were you also reading Vos Is Neias?

http://www.vosizneias.com/19122/2008/08/08/israel-rabbi-calls-for-pregnant-breastfeeding-women-to-fast-on-tisha-bav/

frumskeptic said...

Frumpunk: No, I didn't read that. Thanx for the link.

"If there is a danger to the pregnancy or to the termination of breastfeeding, they shouldn’t fast as not to cause such a reality,”

As if woman really feel when they're about to get a miscarraige. When she feels anything, its already miscarried. Duh!

Its not healthy for a woman to fast while nursing. She may get an infection and lose her milk. Making it unhealthy. While she won't die, its still bad. how would she know when her infection is coming?

Where do Rabbi's come up with this? ANd why do woman listen?

Leora said...

I agree. I don't see any reason to ask a rabbi about fasting while pregnant; I don't even see a reason to ask a doctor. DON'T DO IT. You are responsible for another human being.

I have fasted while nursing an older infant; if one feels up to it, it's not that hard to do. I wouldn't do it with a baby less than four months, however.

Thanks for raising this topic.

"Why do women do it?"
1) They really, really want to fast and be part of Am Yisrael
OR
2) They feel bullied into doing so.
OR
3) Not all women are in touch with health issues. Or they don't think it will hurt their baby, because they feel fine.

frumpunk said...

This is my favorite comment from the VIN thread:


A close relative of mine went into the hospital after fasting out motzei Yom Kippur. She was pregnant and not feeling well. The nurses hooked her up to a machine to monitor the baby, and there was a flat line. As they pumped her with fluids, the line slowly became more wavy as time passed. B"H all ended well and the pregnancy continued, but the husband then said, "Every rabbi and dayan should witness this once in their lifetime."
Some yrs later, I asked my own OB for her opinion on the risks of fasting. Her response: "I know ppl in your community will follow their Rabbis' advice, and I respect that. But no one should say that it doesn't affect the baby. After every major fast day, I'm in the hospital with women watching the lines on the monitors go from flat to wavy after we give them fluids. Your body is sustaining two circulatory systems. You fast, and the baby fasts too. That's the bottom line."
And drinking lots of fluid? That accomplishes one thing: a sleepless night interrupted by trips to the bathroom. It doesn't help the day after.

And for those men who like to be tzaddikim on the wives' cheshbon, at least don't insist on the minor fast days. I've heard of immature men who think it's a great mitzvah to have their wives keep every fast day.

Of course, I'll add the all-important byline of "Ask your own Rabbi..."


For some counterpoint its followed with:

"I fasted heavily pregnant & nursing, my daughters (all nursing B"H) are fasting. It's not fun but hey, a woman's gotta do what a woman's gotta do."

DYS said...

I agree with you, no question. But it's important not to throw around anecdotes as facts. You wrote

It is common knowledge that after Tsha B'av and Yom Kippur there are many premature births.

This sounds likely, but I'd still like to know if there's been a study establishing that this does happen?

Again, I'm not challenging you - I agree with you 100% on this topic - just would like to know if that statement about premature births is backed up by solid evidence.

Moshe said...

My wife fasted until around 3PM. Though she pretty much spent the time sleeping.

David said...

My wife had a baby right before Tisha b'Av. I told her in no uncertain terms that I didn't want her fasting. Fortunately, she was reasonably easy to convince, having fasted once before on Tisha b'Av while pregnant-- it actually gave her a few early contractions.

frumskeptic said...

DYS: I know people who went into early pregnancies.

I know people who know people who went into early pregnancies.

In my community people actually consider this "common knowledge" The situation is such taht until they see a baby die (which hopefully will never happen) they'll continue fasting.

I mean, did anyone see a person freeze to death? NO! Yet they still wont go out naked in the winter. Why would they fast on a fast day just because they don't know anyone whose baby ever died?

ERR

Moshe: BSha tova :-)

Moshe said...

I keep meaning to scan the sonogram and post it...too lazy...

mlevin said...

DYS - I know a nurse who works in the maternity ward. She said that she sees it after every fast... premature births and miscarriages and early labor contractions.

Jacob Da Jew said...

I got a psak halacha that according to Chacham Ovadia Yosef women who gave birth up to 30 days before Tisha B'av do not need to fast.

So Da Wife did not. I'll say this though, she did not eat or drink at night and her milk was definitely affected.

Moshe said...

Dude, you don't need psak halacha for that. It's one every tisha b'av resource site online.

Dina said...

Well, now I feel like a sucker - fasted Tisha B'Av & Yom Kippur with all 3... And me born the day after Yom Kippur myself (though not prematurely).

Moshe: b'sha'ah tova! I didn't know - haven't seen you guys in a while

The Babysitter said...

In seminary I think one of my teachers said that in such a situation you should listen to what your body tells you over the doctor and Rabbi. With everything not just fasting.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter: What your seminary teacher said sounds all great in theory, but she forgets that Jews have one thing going against them, and thats their Jewish guilt.

I've had such bad headaches and stomaches during fasts.

I never broke my fasts because I felt guilty doing so.

Jewish guilt is such bad stuff. IF you tell woman they shoudl fast while pregnant, they'll do so becuase they'll feel guilty breaking their fasts. If Rebbeim said "Don't fast, but don't eat a 3 course meal" (like they do to diabetic and sick people) pregnant women would be alot better off

The Babysitter said...

I agree with you. But then again they can't make a universal rule, cause every woman is different. If it were possible, and if it would be best, then it would be a good idea for them to make a ruling saying pregnant woman are not allowed to fast. But then I thought it was understood that they shouldn't fast on certain ones.

Now that I think about it, I just remembered last yom kippur someone in my shul was pregnant and fainted during davening, our shul has a lot of Hatzollah people in it, so they were able to help her right away. I didn't even know she was pregnant cause she was barely showing. But B"H she was ok at the end, and now she has a healthy baby and all.

frumskeptic said...

Not fasting while pregnant should be a universal thing.

Especially since it happens to be really bad for the baby. Just like someone previously mentioned (don't know here or on the link FP gave) that if the mom is fasting, the baby is fasting. A baby CANNOT fast, nor should it.

and if the baby is fasting, its unhealthy for the mom because the mommy is hosting the baby. It really all points to the no-fasting route

Jessica said...

On tisha ba'av I fasted from the time the fast started until about 1 pm. I was told by both my doctor and my rabbi that as soon as I start feeling like I can't fast anymore, I should stop. As soon as I got hungry, I stopped fasting. I think its silly to not ask a rabbi and just rely on hearsay that fasting=miscarriage (or even go the opposite route and assume that you must fast simply because it is a more strict fast day).

mlevin said...

Jessica - you totally missed a point of a post. This post points out that Rabbis think women should fast despite the medical evidence that it causes miscarriages and premature delivery.

No one claims that you should have a three course meal on Yom Kippur, but a small sneak and some water will be very beneficial. Afterall, there is a reason why children should not fast until Bat/Bar mitzvah age. Although I have seen children as young as 9 fasting all day.

Jessica said...

mlevin - no, I understood the point of the post, but I believe that the post missed a few crucial points. Not all, not even most rabbis would say that a pregnant woman must fast. Most would give the same heter that I got (fast until you can't anymore). Fasting all day does not cause a woman to have a miscarriage. Of course a pregnant woman should eat, but a pregnant woman's body takes care of the child within her first. If it were true that fasting automatically causes a miscarriage, then very few pregnancies would actually result in a child being born simply based on the fast that during the first trimester most women are too sick to eat -- and when they are able to eat, they just throw that up as well.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: "Most would give the same heter that I got (fast until you can't anymore)"

What does that mean?

Some woman may feel guilty, or convince themselves they're too weak, and NOT eat when they should. WE're talking about Jewish women here! Jewish guilt got us into lots of trouble.

Also, Some women are fortunate enough to have VERY easy pregnancies. And they don't feel a thing. They may not begin to feel sick, and jsut lose the baby, not giving them enough time to feel the "until you can't eat anymore" And then, BAM, bad news.

I know its not so black and white, but its not a risk women should be told to take. There's no halacha that pregnant women shold fast, its a derivation of some far-fetched halacha that REBBEIM (who are male) came up with.

Again, "Forget the Rabbis. Until they get ovaries and a uterus and bleed every month for a few years on schedule, they're not exactly the greatest advise givers."

frumskeptic said...

and convince themselves they're just acting too weak*******

sorry bout that

Jessica said...

What it means is that Jewish women aren't as emotionally fragile as you're making them out to be. Of course it was weird eating on a fast day, but any woman with half a brain will understand that if she's feeling like she's about to throw up, it means that that baby is eating up all the nutrients and leaving nothing for her, so she'll eat. What's the point of being an orthodox Jew if you're not going to listen to rabbis just because they're male? Women should just decide for themselves what they think is right and ignore what a rabbi has to say just because he has a Y chromosome?

Moshe said...

Jessica, so do you think your logic applies to Williamsburg and Boro Park?

The Babysitter said...

I have to agree with Jessica. The gemarah which is learned by men discusses several issues that deal with woman, so there is away for them to learn about it, even though they aren't a woman themselves.

Jessica said...

Moshe - ...?

Moshe said...

"but any woman with half a brain will understand that if she's feeling like she's about to throw up, it means that that baby is eating up all the nutrients and leaving nothing for her, so she'll eat."

And I don't think the rabbis there are as understanding as you think. Girl got twins. Had problems handling them. She and husband asked rabbi if they can use birth control. He said no. While nursing she got pregnant again and gave birth to another pair of twins and ended up in mental ward.

Jessica said...

moshe- so because one rabbi misguided his students that means we shouldn't trust any rabbis? freshman year of college a significant percent of those students have psychotic breaks because of the new stress in their lives, does that mean we should stop going to college too? those students were going to have that breakdown eventually, just as that woman was too.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: It's not just women who experience Jewish guilt. men do it to, or else they'd tell their wives not to fast.


"What's the point of being an orthodox Jew if you're not going to listen to rabbis just because they're male?"

It means being orthodox, and not a member of a cult.

Did you ever get advice from a guy on how to releive menstrual cramps? I did, from a few guys. Well, one guy, a yoga instructor, gave my friend (one of those lucky woman who doesn't feel pain) advice to do this stupid stretch. She showed it to us, and apparently that is one stretch I do all the time for fun. Another time a guy gym teacher said that we should excerice during the visit of our monthly friends. I looked at one of my friends and was like "HA, I'd like to see a guy excercise with a paper cut."

Some things should just remain between women, whether or not to fast during pregnancy should be one of those things.

A Rabbi cannot possibly derive halacha from a womens perspective, therefore he shouldn't be listened to when he says dumb things.

There seems no logic behind the fasting anyway.

During pregnancy a women is allowed to (according to halacha, by these same Rebbeim) to bend on milk/meat. She's basically required to satisfy her cravings because that means the baby craves the nutrition,whcih means that if she happens to need milk and just finished with meat, she can have it and wait almost no time.

BUT, when it coems to her being pregnant, she can suddenly ignore all foods, even if the 6 hours are waited between meat/milk, because suddenly the babies nutrition isn't important.

I fail to see how that makes anysense.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: "so because one rabbi misguided his students that means we shouldn't trust any rabbis?"

Have you heard of Kolel? The cancellation of the Lipa concert? The separate seating in some of the Monsey restuarants?

The frum community is misguided not by one, but by majority of Rebbeim. Trusting them should be very hard. Even the few Rabbi's you do trust, get advice from community and outside sources. Should be skeptical with them as well. I always give my Rabbi hard time and demand sources before I listen to him.

how he puts up with me, is beyond me, but he has too. We don't beleive in the priest/pope thing where he's somehow a messanger from Gd who is all beknowest.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter: You can read all about how to swim. You can study in detail each and every detail of every type of swimming stroke, until you actually swim, you won't know how to.

Same with Rabbi's and paskening halacha.

Jessica said...

FS - How can you use the example of rabeim allowing women to be lax on milk/meat to prove your point that rabeim should not be in charge of women's mitzvos? Come on, you were a philosophy major. That makes the entire argument invalid... or is it unsound? I can't remember anymore.

FS:"It means being orthodox, and not a member of a cult."

Part of orthodox Judaism though is finding a rabbi for yourself.

FS:"There seems to be no logic behind the fasting anyway."

Do you mean only for pregnant women or fasting in general? If you mean the latter, then why do you fast?

FS:"Have you heard of Kolel? The cancellation of the Lipa concert? The separate seating in some of the Monsey restuarants?"

While I think that, with the exception of kolel, those things are silly, they are not proof that rabbis cannot lead. They are proof that there are some, not many or most, rabbis who are radical.

FS: "The frum community is misguided not by one, but by majority of Rebbeim. "

Again, it is not the majority, only a select few and now that you know who they are, you know who to avoid.

FS: "A Rabbi cannot possibly derive halacha from a womens perspective,"

If he can't do it from a woman's perspective, then why should we assume he can derive any halachos from anything? And if these rabbis are so dumb, then shouldn't we all give up orthodox Judaism altogether? Afterall, it was these male rabbis who wrote the gemara that we base so much of our halachos on...

frumskeptic said...

I'm in a bit of a rush, so sorry if I'm not completely clear.

Jessica: With the meat/milk example I wasn't trying to prove that Rabbi's shouldn't be able to lead, simply that it makes no sense that if a woman can bend on something like meat/milk when she's pregnant b/c the nutrients for the baby is so important, it makes no sense that she cannot bend on something more serious, such as starving herself for the day.

Yes, Judaism says one should find a rabbi for themselves, but that doesn't mean they have to listen to him about things that he's completely wrong in without questioning.

Part of Judaism is questioning as well, yet the frum community seems to be happy going down the Christian path of leaving it to "faith" and Rabbeim knowing everything. Thats crap, and in my opinino thats what got Jews into so much trouble over the years (Read a previous post I had on Listening to Rebbeim- its quote old, I'll link it hopefully later).

ALL rebbeim listen to the Gedolim. THey need someone to asnwer too. We have one Gadol who is obvioulsy going a bit senile, and the rest of them are constantly arguing on whether Sephardim or Ashkenazim have disgusting customs. WHich means there's something wrong in our "governing" bodies. Even the "modern" ones.

I don't think Rebbeim cannot paskin anything, just that it is impossibly for them to paskin something for a woman (in regards to exclusively feminine things such as pregnancy) until he walked in a womans shoules for a few miles.

To tell her the laws of niddah doesn't require him to know about pleasure/pain. THe laws are in their clear and sound. but to tell her about whether or not she should have to fast or not is completely different. He CANNOT paskin in those shoes. And since he does (cuz the Rebbetzin has gone out the picture in modern times) we have to be very skeptical of his pov, cuz he realy doesn't know anything when it comes to these things.

Basically there's listening and there's blindly following. I'm for being annoying till you get the answer.

Heck, I became frum, didn't I? That shows I do some listening myself. BUt I never took anything upon myself without researching it first.

Jessica said...

FS:"Yes, Judaism says one should find a rabbi for themselves, but that doesn't mean they have to listen to him about things that he's completely wrong in without questioning."
But the rabbis are not completely wrong. The heter that I received from my rabbi was the exact same thing that my doctor told me. My doctor is not a rabbi or a male. My doctor is a woman who has had children and has a good understanding of how the human, pregnant body works.

FS:"I don't think Rebbeim cannot paskin anything, just that it is impossibly for them to paskin something for a woman (in regards to exclusively feminine things such as pregnancy) until he walked in a womans shoules for a few miles."

You have never walked in a pregnant woman's shoes before, so how can you paskin was is correct or incorrect for her to do on a fast day?

FS:"Basically there's listening and there's blindly following. I'm for being annoying till you get the answer."

What answer is it that you're looking for? You seem to be saying don't even bother asking the rabbi at all and just answer it yourself without the guidance of anyone else. There's blindly following, but there's also blindly going the other way simply because you're afraid of being accused of blindly following.

FS:"Heck, I became frum, didn't I? That shows I do some listening myself. BUt I never took anything upon myself without researching it first."

I've been pregnant for 5 months. 4 of the months I knew I was pregnant. The day I found out I was pregnant I did as much research on pregnancy as possible. Even before I became pregnant I did research on pregnancy. One thing that I did learn in regard to people that have easy pregnancies (and I'm referring to an earlier comment that you made about easy pregnancies) are more likely to have a miscarriage no matter what they do or don't do. When a woman has an easy pregnancy it means that she does not have as many pregnancy hormones. Less hormones=less nausea=easier pregnancy. Like I said earlier, fasting does not equal miscarriage. If it did then these third world country where people are actually starving would have died out. But they haven't died out and they're carrying children to term that then go on to have children of their own while they're starving.

I'm all for questioning authority, but you're not questioning authority here. You're saying to stop questioning authority and just do whatever you feel. Last time I checked that was anarchy.

Moshe said...

I'm not a doctor but I would think that in third world countries where people are starving, their bodies are used to that amount of food. When people who normally eat 3 times per day and take vitamins suddenly stop eating and drinking for a 25 hour period, it's a shock to the system.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: then how is it possible to "know" history. If you can't experience it. Yet you believe in it. Until you actually saw how slaves were treated, how can you say that they were treated that way? Then you can say there are sources, primary sources that recount how they were treated and that's why you believe it. So same here, the Rabbi's get their information from Primary sources, the Torah, what Hashem said. Then based on that they are able to understand it all and paskan on it.

Also, how can a Rabbi Paskan on divorce if he was never divorced? How can He paskan on so many things? It's not that he has to have experienced it, he just needs the knowledge and the ability to be able to relate. So same with woman, woman issues aren't different than divorce or any other issue a Rabbi deals with.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: "Yes, Judaism says one should find a rabbi for themselves, but that doesn't mean they have to listen to him about things that he's completely wrong in without questioning."

How do you know he is wrong?

It is for reasons like this that we should want Moshiach to come, to clear up all the gray area and make it clear once again.

Right now nobody is an expert on anything, but you would hope the Rabbi's are right, they've studied these areas, they have smicha. Some are even psychologist, so they are very educated.

About the Gadol going senile. Lihavdil people are saying that about M'Cain, but yet millions of people would pick him over O'Bama. Just because a Gadol is old doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

Jessica said...

moshe - all pregnant women have to go for a glucose test in which they have to fast from the night before until they have the test, then they drink a cup full of sugar (basically)... I'd think that would be quite a shock to the system too, but it is perfectly safe for pregnant women to do it.

Moshe said...

Not from the night before, several hours. Remember wife doing it doing last pregnancy, test was around 5PM and she did dinner and pretty sure ate breakfast too.

mlevin said...

Jessica - for glucose test you are allowed to drink, and food is forbidden for only 6 hours. That's a lot different than no food and no drink for over 25 hours.

Those women in Africa, although starving, are still hydrated. Also, if you had ever read statistics they have the HIGHEST miscarriage rate, also the HIGHEST low birth rate, also the HIGHEST birth defect rate, also the HIGHEST premature labor rate. Yes, our Jewish women should look at starving Africans as an example.

Jessica said...

moshe and mlevin - okay, so you didn't like my examples. Well, what about the first trimester? I lost 10 pounds from my first OB appointment until my second. All of my friends who are or have been pregnant were unable to eat/threw up for the first three months of their pregnancy as well and none of them had miscarriages or complications.

Moshe said...

But they and you were drinking and taking prenatal vitamins, right?

Jessica said...

moshe - If you throw up the water and prenatals does it count as taking vitamins and drinking?

mlevin - you might want to start looking up statistics before you throw them around as fact. the countries with the highest miscarriage rate are in South Asia, not Africa. South-central Asia has the highest low birth weight, not Africa. I could not find any statistics on country with the highest birth defect rate or country with the highest premature labor rate -- I guess you can't find everything on google. Where exactly did you find your statistics?
But let's assume for a second that your statistics were actually correct. These African women, besides for being malnourished, also have little or no medical treatment while they're pregnant. Couldn't that account for their high rates?

mlevin said...

Jessica - I may not have written it properly. Yes, we were discussing Africa, but Africa is huge. When I hear people talk about lack of food and Africa, I automatically think of Zimbabwe, Congo, Ethiopia. I do not include Egypt, Morocco and South Africa where standard of living is a lot higher.

Now, you just said it yourself that you have lost 10 lbs during the first trimester. In actuality you lost not 10 but 15 lbs. Because within the first month of pregnancy you double the amount of blood in your body (4lbs) plus I’d give it an extra pound for baby/placenta and etc. So, your body is already in the starvation mode and simultaneously working overtime. And to all this stress you want to add voluntary starvation? Why?

When I was pregnant the first time I lost only 5 pounds. On my 4th month doctor visit I was told that if I don’t gain weight by month 5, I will be hospitalized. That doesn’t sound like it’s ok for pregnant women to fast, does that?

Here’s another tidbit. When a mother is fasting her baby is fasting too. Right? Why is it ok for unborn to fast, but not ok for babies and children under 12/13 to fast? These babies/children are a lot stronger than they are inside their mother, yet you insist that they should be starved.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter and Jessica: Before I go into detail replying to everything you guys wrote, I DID ask Rabbi's in both HS and my own. They say to fast. They don't give you a passuk or anything. Just say fast. You could ask them for a source, they cannot give you one, because no Torah source says a woman is supposed to fast while pregnant.

It cannot. If a woman is carrying a child, her child fasts as well. A child is not supposed to fast, therefore the mom is putting childs life at risk and hers as well.

Therefore, logically, there is no passuk. Which is why I never got one.

Ask my Rabbi, I annoy him all the time during shuirim. Its what I do. If he gives me a source, I shut up.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: I never said that fasting necessarily equals to miscarraige. Just that it was moer likely. Just like hte day after Tsha B'av and Yom Kippur the maternity ward is more crowded (according to Mlevin) with early/premature pregnancy's.

I wouldn't say that a fast automaticaly led to miscarraige. Maybe it was unintentionally implied- but I wouldn't say it was- because I know a few women who were a few months pregnant, fasted full-time, and they have healthy babies.

But it IS more likely.

Babysitter: You don't know history, which is why its called HISstory. IF we did know it, and people took it seriously, we would learn from our mistakes. We don't. We don't know anything. You read 5 books about hte same time period and they'll probably all contradict on things aside from dates.

Heck, we don't even know whats going on in the world now. Compare the Times and the WSJ or the Post, will be three totally different stories. Maybe the numbers will match, but the skewed view of events will be totally skewed.

Same with many things in teh Gemara and Shulchan Orech. They are often derived by sexist people. and/or just stam outdated.

About paskening w/o experience the examples you give on divorce are very different then pregnancy. The laws of divorce are the laws of divorce. A woman cannot remarry until she gets a get. A guy can -halachically- do w/e he wants with or w/o a get. You don't need to be divorced to figure that out. Just like a Christian can read Vayikra and see how it says "Keep kosher" and he'll understand thats what Jews have to do.

There's no derivation.

In the olden days, Rebetzins used to teach over the laws of Kashrus. If you weren't sure if your chicken was kosher, you'd go to a Rebetzin. The kitched was womens territory. No everything became mans territory.

How could man know things that only a woman can experience? They cannot, and the torah doesn't say antying straight out for them to pasken something like this.


The laws of niddah are pretty straight forward. Yet they still usually have women explain everything to the girls. How is it normal for pregnancy to be different.

Jessica: ABout my never being pregnant, you're right, I never walked in a pregnant ladies shoes. Yet I have read things and spoken to woman, and Rebbeim can and often are clueless.

Most heathcare professionals would discourage fasting while pregnant, simply becasue the risk of fasting is not something to toy with.

Again, I'm not here encourging one should eat 3 course meals on yom kippur. But a woman shuld definity not put her body on starvation mode when its nurturing another life.

Jessica said...

mlevin:"In actuality you lost not 10 but 15 lbs. Because within the first month of pregnancy you double the amount of blood in your body (4lbs) plus I’d give it an extra pound for baby/placenta and etc."
No, actually I did only lose 10. The first month of my pregnancy I didn't even know I was pregnant. And OB's won't even check to see that you are pregnant until 6 weeks after your last missed period. The numbers don't lie.

mlevin:"When I was pregnant the first time I lost only 5 pounds. On my 4th month doctor visit I was told that if I don’t gain weight by month 5, I will be hospitalized. That doesn’t sound like it’s ok for pregnant women to fast, does that?"
Not gaining weight during pregnancy and fasting for one day during pregnancy are very different things . But the fact that your doctor said you were safe until the 5th month shows that a pregnant woman can last quite a long time without being properly nourished. 5 months is a lot longer than 25 hours.

mlevin: "Here’s another tidbit. When a mother is fasting her baby is fasting too. Right?"
Wrong. The baby is taking all the nutrients that the mother has left over that normally would be given to her during a fast. The mother would have to fast for at least a few days straight before the baby would start fasting as well.

mlevin:"yet you insist that they should be starved."
You, my dear, have missed the point. I never said "pregnant women must fast the full 25 hours." What I said is that most rabbis will give a heter to stop fasting when the mother sees fit. If the mother gets hungry at 9 AM, then she can eat. If she doesn't get hungry until 3 PM, then she'll wait until then. Neither are a full 25 hours, neither are starvation.



FS:"I DID ask Rabbi's in both HS and my own. They say to fast. They don't give you a passuk or anything. Just say fast. You could ask them for a source, they cannot give you one, because no Torah source says a woman is supposed to fast while pregnant."
You need to get a new rabbi. A rabbi, even if he can't answer your question at the moment, will not just say "do this" without giving you a full answer. He will say, let me think about it because I don't know the answer off-hand. (and as for the high school rabbi, you've already expressed much distaste for your high school so why would you even expect them to answer your questions fully?)

FS:"If a woman is carrying a child, her child fasts as well. "
Again, that is not true. It would take several days of the woman fasting before it would begin to effect her baby.

FS:"Therefore, logically, there is no passuk. Which is why I never got one."
Where is the passuk that says pregnant women should NOT fast?

FS:"I never said that fasting necessarily equals to miscarraige. Just that it was moer likely. Just like hte day after Tsha B'av and Yom Kippur the maternity ward is more crowded (according to Mlevin) with early/premature pregnancy's."
And you trust a random commenter over your rabbi because...?

FS:"because I know a few women who were a few months pregnant, fasted full-time, and they have healthy babies."
The people you know who fasted have healthy babies, but other people say that strangers you've never met don't... Interesting.


FS:"ABout my never being pregnant, you're right, I never walked in a pregnant ladies shoes. Yet I have read things and spoken to woman, and Rebbeim can and often are clueless."
That's a pretty bold assumption. Why would you assume that you have a better grasp of this stuff than he does? How do you know that a rabbi has never read a book or spoken to a woman? I know that my rabbi and his wife are very involved in the lives of all of their students. My parents' rabbi and wife, my in-law's rabbi and wife... all of them speak to bother the males and females and I'm sure they discuss things with each other as well. All three of them (who all live in different states and don't know each other) gave the same heter this past tisha ba'av. "Fast until you no longer can." They obviously know something because all the women who got these heters from them are still pregnant and still healthy.

FS:"
Most heathcare professionals would discourage fasting while pregnant, simply becasue the risk of fasting is not something to toy with."
Not true. My OB said that it was fine for me to fast, but as soon as I couldn't anymore I should stop (she gave me the same heter the rabbi did). She came to me very highly recommended and I've found that she is a very thorough and knowledgeable doctor.

FS:"But a woman shuld definity not put her body on starvation mode when its nurturing another life."
This word "starvation" keeps getting thrown around... The body doesn't automatically go into starvation mode from one day of fasting. If it did, then we would all be screwed whether we were pregnant or not because it takes months for the body to adjust back from starvation mode. Maybe I'm just being nit-picky, but I really don't think "starvation" has any place in this conversation. We're not talking about fasting for a week. We're talking about one day, and in most cases less than one day.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: Well woman still are those ones who give Kallah classes, Rebitzens still do give speeches/shiurim on woman topics. It's not tznius for a man too. But its different with a Rabbi, and if you say that he can't experience it, then the woman is able to tell him exactly how she feels so that he's able to experience it through her eyes. It's like if year hear something well described you can picture it and know everything about it.

and btw, men might not understand it as much as you put it, but because they can't relate they may feel its worse than it is and they may be more sympathetic. I've had cases like that where my father saw the pain I was having more than my mother, and when I didn't have medicine one time, he went to a neighbor and borrowed. While my mother who experienced the pain before, felt it was just a passing thing and it can't be that bad.

Did I tell you one of the reasons we fast? In case I didn't, one reason why we fast is because when we eat we feel strong and in control so fasting is supposed to make us more dependent on Hashem. So its supposed to cause a feeling.

I still agree with Jessica, a pregnant woman should fast till their able to, and if you claim woman know themselves so well, more than a Rabbi or doctor because of experience, then they will know when they can't fast anymore. If they can't tell themselves this, then I don't see why a Rabbi telling them would be any different.

Moshe said...

A lot of the women giving kallah classes should be summarily executed. Forget about chumras, they present their own personal views as halachas.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: So then your saying men would be better for it? which goes against FrumSkeptics point, I don't think you would do that. So if your just saying there's not good lady kallah class people, then each lady has to find one that's good. There's always gonna be good and bad people of all professions, you have to find the right one for you.

Moshe said...

Good luck finding one that's not gonna lie to you when you're getting married.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: why would they lie? what's in it for them? what do they gain?

Moshe said...

They lie because they want you to do what they think you're supposed to do. They're supposed to teach halacha, not their personal opinions.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe, so that means their misinformed? So then who taught them that way to have those opinions?

Moshe said...

Some may be misinformed, though I doubt it. Others think that they know better what's good for you.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: either case its them trying to teach you what they think is best for you, so its not like they evily teach you the wrong stuff.

Moshe said...

It's none of their business "what's good for you", they're supposed to honestly tell you what the halacha is. It's the same as my pesach post. Those idiots decided that it's not appropriate to open bottles on yom tov and are presenting it as a valid minchag.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: ok, your right, and that is where a Rabbi comes in to play. A Rabbi would only tell you what the Halacha is!

Moshe said...

Now days, maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't. I printed out an article from torah.org that stated you can open beer cans, sardines and any other cans that have a ring, without making any holes. Showed it to my rabbi, he looked at it, looked some more, asked me where I got it and in the end admitted that it's right.

mlevin said...

Jessica – Here you’re saying two contradictory things. In one place you said, “What I said is that most rabbis will give a heter to stop fasting when the mother sees fit. If the mother gets hungry at 9 AM, then she can eat. If she doesn't get hungry until 3 PM, then she'll wait until then. Neither are a full 25 hours, neither are starvation.” Which means fast until hungry. I have no objection to that, because if a woman is hungry then her baby is hungry too and needs to be fed.

Then later in the same post you said, “We're not talking about fasting for a week. We're talking about one day” Which means fast a whole day, because all women, pregnant or not will feel hungry during the 25 hour period. If she feels hungry and its past noon, then both she and her baby are starving.

So, what is it, fast until hungry or full day?

“mlevin:"In actuality you lost not 10 but 15 lbs. Because within the first month of pregnancy you double the amount of blood in your body (4lbs) plus I’d give it an extra pound for baby/placenta and etc."
No, actually I did only lose 10. The first month of my pregnancy I didn't even know I was pregnant. “

Jessica – please reread what I wrote. Let’s say you used to be 120 lbs before pregnancy. At 6 weeks scale showed 120 lbs. That means that you lost 5 pounds. Why? Because at this point baby takes up 5 lbs. So, if your scale shows 110, then it means that you lost 15 lbs. of weight; 10 that shows up on scale and 5 that went into a baby.

“But the fact that your doctor said you were safe until the 5th month shows that a pregnant woman can last quite a long time without being properly nourished. 5 months is a lot longer than 25 hours.”

When I was negative 5 lbs at 4 months it means that my body was losing a lot of weight/energy. My body at that moment lost between 15-20 lbs. Since I wasn’t vomiting and eating well, doctor decided that I had enough stored energy (fat) in my body to support a growing baby for another 4 weeks.

I was also well hydrated at that time. It is a known fact that stored energy (fat) also stores lots of toxins. When stored energy is released for your body’s use these toxins enter your blood stream. Hydration, at this point is very important, because water is what your body uses to carry toxins out of your blood stream. At some point during fasting your body exhausts all of energy and starts using stored energy. At this point it needs water to flush toxins, but if you’re not drinking, these toxins enter your blood stream and follow its path to the baby.

“And OB's won't even check to see that you are pregnant until 6 weeks after your last missed period. The numbers don't lie.” Please next time go to another OB. There are many birth defects and miscarriage prevention that could be done prior to 3 weeks of pregnancy. My friend’s sister gave birth to a baby without lungs. This baby suffocated within minutes after birth. Doctors told her to see an OB prior to 3 weeks; there are operations which fix these types of birth defects. Another friend had a history of miscarriages. Doctors supplemented her diet with hormones and she made it through a first trimester. My former SIL had a tubular pregnancy. If not caught in time it will cause death to both mother and baby. She was almost 3 months (10 weeks) when she went to see a doctor for general exam. At that point doctor called 911, canceled all of his appointment and cut one of her tubes out. Had she waited another week she would have been 6 feet under pushing daisies.

“And you trust a random commenter over your rabbi because...?” I happen to know FS very well. She trusts my sources and knows the nurse in question, also.

mlevin said...

Babysitter – I know a kallah who went to a kallah class and was given a book to read. All approved by her rebbetzin. After she finished both, her rebbetzin said to follow what she learned about nidah because most of it is true, but to ignore everything else.

I remember, myself, learning with a kallah teacher that it’s a halocha from the Torah to count 7 clean days, recently I found out that it’s not. In the Torah it’s says 7 days, stam. Seven clean days shtick was added later on by the rabbeim (yep, men) because women are too stupid to tell the difference between clean and not-clean. Imagine all those poor women throughout ages who thought they were barren, simply because their cycle was different and they ovulated too early.

What about teaching girls that birth control is assur? Why are they lying about that? There’s more, but this blog should remain PG.

Moshe said...

I was mainly talking about the more part. And yeah, only useful thing is the nidda/checking part.

For the "more" part, head over to the calm kallahs forums

Jessica said...

mlevin: "I have no objection to that, because if a woman is hungry then her baby is hungry too and needs to be fed."
Again, this is not true. The baby is very well taken care of and even if the mother is hungry, the baby is still getting all the nutrients it needs. It is taking the nutrients from the mother which is making her hungry in the first place.

As for me saying two contradictory things, they were in no way contradictory. A woman, if she feels up to it can fast a whole day, but many women break it early because they get a heter.

mlevin:"If she feels hungry and its past noon, then both she and her baby are starving. "
Feeling hungry and starvation are two very different things. So no, if it is past noon and the mother is hungry, neither her or the baby are starving.

mlevin:"So, what is it, fast until hungry or full day?"
If a woman feels she can fast for a full day, then more power to her, but I have yet to meet anyone who has been told to fast the whole day no matter how they feel. I'm sure you can tell me stories of women who were forced to fast, but they're just that: stories. Every single person that I know who was pregnant this past fast got the same exact heter as I did (from different rabbis).

mlevin:"Jessica – please reread what I wrote. Let’s say you used to be 120 lbs before pregnancy. At 6 weeks scale showed 120 lbs. That means that you lost 5 pounds. Why? Because at this point baby takes up 5 lbs. So, if your scale shows 110, then it means that you lost 15 lbs. of weight; 10 that shows up on scale and 5 that went into a baby."
For the first 6 weeks I didn't know I was pregnant, which means I was not having any symptoms. My weight did not begin to go down until around the 7th week, so I really only lost 10 pounds. Again, the numbers don't lie.

mlevin:"Since I wasn’t vomiting and eating well, doctor decided that I had enough stored energy (fat) in my body to support a growing baby for another 4 weeks."
Thank you for proving my point. The baby wasn't in any danger.

That thing you wrote about hydration though... if you were losing weight I assume that means that you were throwing up, correct? Your body doesn't pick and choose what it throws up. It will throw up liquids as well causing a lack of hydration.

mlevin: "Please next time go to another OB. There are many birth defects and miscarriage prevention that could be done prior to 3 weeks of pregnancy."
Why do I keep having to repeat myself? I didn't know I was pregnant the first month of my pregnancy! At 3 weeks nothing could have been done because I had no idea there was any reason to go to an OB.

mlevin:"I happen to know FS very well. She trusts my sources and knows the nurse in question, also."
She also knows her rabbi very well...

Moshe said...

Break! To your corners!
I wonder how long this is gonna go on. 11 days already. And all comments very long. Stop it! I don't have time to read pages of comments!

mlevin said...

Jessica – in the example FS provided rabbi told this woman to fast on YK until she thinks she will miscarry. She ended up throwing up blue stuff, but didn’t eat or drink anything, because she did not have any signs of miscarriage. I’m sure most rabbeim phrase it the same way.

What does it mean “until she can’t anymore” Is she feeling weak? Is she feeling faint? Does she have a headache?

Again. If you were 120 lbs before pregnancy and 120 lbs at nine months that means that you lost a total of 30-35 lbs depending on the size of the baby. Because that is how much weight that is not yours. Once you give birth you will be at least 15 pounds lighter and if you don’t add an ounce of fat within the next 6 weeks (and not breast feed) you will loose the rest of the baby weight and you will be 90 lbs. That means that during pregnancy you have lost 30 pounds.

“That thing you wrote about hydration though... if you were losing weight I assume that means that you were throwing up, correct? Your body doesn't pick and choose what it throws up. It will throw up liquids as well causing a lack of hydration.”

No I said it before; I was not vomiting during pregnancy. I was losing weight because my body was now burning more calories to sustain me, AND to sustain a growing baby. That is why pregnant women need to eat more, they need more energy.

Once your body realizes that you’re pregnant the first thing it does is go into overdrive and double up on the blood. Creation of more blood requires more energy and more protein. If your body is not getting it from food, it will get it from stored energy or it will expel the baby.

About OB, you said that your OB doesn’t see patients until 6 weeks after a missed period. So, I advised you to look for a new one, because first 6 weeks could be crucial to the baby. If your OB doesn’t realize it, get another one. I am aware that many women don’t know they are pregnant until later… but that’s a different issue.

Moshe – sorry about that. Couldn’t be helped. 

Moshe said...

Stop fighting!
Will someone please think of the children!
Oh, you're fighting about children? In that case, carry on.

The Babysitter said...

MLevin: yea, since I was never married, I never attended Kallah classes, so I've never been taught anything yet. I've had discussions with my mother sometimes, but I forgot what she said about the days, and yea I won't get into it all on this blog. But Birth control isn't so simple, your allowed to do it, but I think there's other things taken into account first.

Moshe: lol, if you don't want to read pages of comments then you don't have to if their not addressed to you. But this is what happens when people are stubborn in their ways and each believe their right, then no matter how much one tries to convince the other, they just won't get it.

lol about the children part.

Mlevin: from previous posts, I thought Jessica knew who you were, but I guess not.

Jessica said...

mlevin:"I’m sure most rabbeim phrase it the same way."
No, they phrase it the same way I have been. 'Until you can't anymore.' FS's example was an extreme one. Most women would have stopped fasting before it got to that point. And even if it did get to that point, they would then stop fasting and call up the doctor. Exceptions don't prove the rule, that's why they're called EXCEPTions.

mlevin:"What does it mean “until she can’t anymore”"
Again, please stop having me repeat things. If not for me, then for the sake of moshe who doesn't seem to be enjoying our debate. It means until she feels hungry, weak, anything.

mlevin:"Again. If you were 120 lbs before pregnancy and 120 lbs at nine months that means that you lost a total of 30-35 lbs depending on the size of the baby. Because that is how much weight that is not yours. Once you give birth you will be at least 15 pounds lighter and if you don’t add an ounce of fat within the next 6 weeks (and not breast feed) you will loose the rest of the baby weight and you will be 90 lbs. That means that during pregnancy you have lost 30 pounds."
Do you realize how little sense that makes? First of all, all the weight you're talking about losing is AFTER the baby is born. Second of all, how many pregnant women do you know that are the same weight at the end of their pregnancy as they were before they were pregnant? When a woman has come to term the average baby is about 6-8 lbs and the placenta adds about a pound and a half. The rest of the weight that a mother gains is fat. After the baby is born, a mother usually only loses about 10 pounds and then throughout the following months loses the excess fat.

mlevin:"No I said it before; I was not vomiting during pregnancy. I was losing weight because my body was now burning more calories to sustain me, AND to sustain a growing baby. That is why pregnant women need to eat more, they need more energy."
Sounds like you had an undiagnosed case of hyperthyroidism.

mlevin:"If your body is not getting it from food, it will get it from stored energy or it will expel the baby."
Wrong again. The baby takes that stored energy which is why it is very common for pregnant women to get frequent headaches, feel faint or dizzy, etc. The body takes care of the baby before the woman carrying it.

mlevin: "About OB, you said that your OB doesn’t see patients until 6 weeks after a missed period. So, I advised you to look for a new one, because first 6 weeks could be crucial to the baby. If your OB doesn’t realize it, get another one. I am aware that many women don’t know they are pregnant until later… but that’s a different issue."

Until 5 weeks the baby can't even show up on a monitor because it's heart isn't even working. All that will show up is, maybe, a spot. Even at 5 weeks it's called "early detection" and is not completely reliable. Anyone with a "What to Expect When You're Expecting" would know that one.


moshe - sorry you're not enjoying this, but this is an important issue and we have a lot to say about it. Frum Skeptic has plenty of other enjoyable blog posts to read, no need for you to focus on this one.

Moshe said...

Jessica, dude, it's Friday, how do you have time to write so much?! Go cook!

mlevin said...

Jessica – If FS’s extreme example she did ask a rabbi and she took him literally. Meaning she didn’t feel contractions therefore she shouldn’t eat/drink. Feeling week and hungry is a lot different from feeling like she’s losing a baby.

I do know a woman who had a difficult pregnancy and transformed from about 250 lbs to size 6 immediately after birth. Another example is my former neighbor she gained exactly 25 lbs and 8 days after baby was born she was already wearing her size 2? 0? clothes. (Not sure, cause she had some type of a butt, and at her height I think it was more 2 than 0.) I know a couple of others who looked exactly the same one day after birth, except for a larger belly which doctor say shrinks back within 4-6 weeks.

Baby and placenta are not the only things that are in your body while you’re pregnant. There is water, the one your baby floats in. Then your uterus is enlarged. Then you have extra blood in your body. You also have extra skin to accommodate a larger belly. You also have larger breasts. All in all, that baby equals 25 pounds.

I personally retained lots of water (my kidneys are weak) so I had extra 10 lbs of water throughout my body. Once that baby is out and my kidneys don’t need to work overtime, my water went back to normal.

My hyperthyroidism is fine, thank you.

“Until 5 weeks the baby can't even show up on a monitor because it's heart isn't even working. All that will show up is, maybe, a spot. Even at 5 weeks it's called "early detection" and is not completely reliable. Anyone with a "What to Expect When You're Expecting" would know that one.”

And yet, somehow they are able to see and collect unfertilized eggs for harvesting to help women who have difficulty conceiving. In addition, they can tell how many fertilized eggs took hold within a few days after implanting them.

Sorry Moshe, baby talk is not for men, I know.

Moshe said...

I don't mind the baby talk, but there's page of it.

frumskeptic said...

I didn't read all the comments yet!:

"Where is the passuk that says pregnant women should NOT fast??"

Exactly my point in all this. There is no halacha either which way. Why risk it and fast?

"It would take several days of the woman fasting before it would begin to effect her baby."

Umm... you know how I wrote: "Ladies, if you're vomiting blue juice, don't be dumb, break your fast, especially if you're pregnant."

In the last paragraph of the post? Well its based on truth. A lady I know was 3 months pregnant. She fasted on Yom Kippur. In the morning she threw up food, then later yellow juice, then green juice, then blue juice.

According to my friend in nursing, blue juice is PURE gastric juice (I did not look this up, but i consider a nursing student reliable). Pure gastric juice isn't exacly good for hte baby. I doubt it would take days before her baby would feel that. More like a few hours.

Her hubby asked the Rabbi after the first times she vomitted, and Rabbi said "She has to fast until she feels as if she's going to have a miscarraige."

I haven't ever in my life heard of a woman feeling a miscarraige come with enough notice to stop it. Usually she feels as if her period is starting. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but at that poitn I would bet its to late to begin eating.

Jessica said...

mlevin - you bring up more extreme examples that do not prove the rule, but are exceptions to the rule.

mlevin: "Baby and placenta are not the only things that are in your body while you’re pregnant. There is water, the one your baby floats in. Then your uterus is enlarged. Then you have extra blood in your body. You also have extra skin to accommodate a larger belly. You also have larger breasts. All in all, that baby equals 25 pounds."

I agree that baby and placenta are not the only things in there, but that extra water, "extra" skin (it's not extra skin, it's stretched out skin... hence the stretch marks) and larger breasts don't just disappear as soon as the baby is born. The breasts tend to grow because there is milk being rushed into them.

Either way, how did we both get so off track? lol. Weren't we supposed to be debating whether or not to trust a rabbi in regard to a pregnant woman fasting?

The Babysitter said...

"Weren't we supposed to be debating whether or not to trust a rabbi in regard to a pregnant woman fasting?"

I guess that's already solved.

(Yay I got comment #75!)

Jessica said...

FS: "
Exactly my point in all this. There is no halacha either which way. Why risk it and fast?"

Why risk gehenom and not fast?

FS:"According to my friend in nursing, blue juice is PURE gastric juice (I did not look this up, but i consider a nursing student reliable). Pure gastric juice isn't exacly good for hte baby. I doubt it would take days before her baby would feel that. More like a few hours."
I don't doubt that for a minute, but it is an awfully extreme example, don't you think? That woman should have used some of the sechel G-d gave her after she threw up the first time. You can't blame a rabbi for this woman lacking basic common sense.

FS:"
I haven't ever in my life heard of a woman feeling a miscarraige come with enough notice to stop it. Usually she feels as if her period is starting. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but at that poitn I would bet its to late to begin eating."
I could not agree more, but one rabbi making a, for lack of a better, more harsh word, stupid mistake, does not mean that we should stop going to rabbis on this issue altogether.

Jessica said...

moshe - I cooked a full shabbas meal all while I was commenting away. Meatloaf, mashed potatoes, peas, zucchini/squash thingy and pineapple upside down cake for desert. When you're unemployed and the semester hasn't started yet you have a lot of extra time on your hands.

Moshe said...

woot, I'm gonna start on my cooking now, like my food fresh.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: Are you kidding me? This could work both ways.

Taking a risk on health and on someones life is also Gohenim worthy. So right back at you:

"why fast and risk gohenim?"

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: i don't think we shold stop going to rabbi's altogether, but we shouldn't take what they say as face value.

We gotta deep into it. If it doesn't say anywhere that we should fast, and common sense leads you to conclude that fasting IS a risk (lack of food is a risk even with perfectly heatlhy people) there should be no reason why a woman would fast.

Jessica said...

FS:"Taking a risk on health and on someones life is also Gohenim worthy. So right back at you:"
You assume it risks someone's life, but every single pregnant person I know right now fasted at least part of tisha ba'av and all are healthy and their babies are healthy. One actually gave birth a couple of days ago (and no, she was not early).

FS:"there should be no reason why a woman would fast."
I have presented facts to you that would give a pregnant woman no reason not to fast on a fast day.

Jessica said...

moshe - I sacrifice the freshness for getting to relax before shabbas starts. I used to wait until a couple hours before shabbas to start cooking and would get insanely stressed out.

frumskeptic said...

Part of tsha b'av is different than all of tsha b'av.

My friend fasted till 1 on tsha b'av. she's 5 months pregnant.

SHe plans on fasting ALL day Yom Kippur "becasue there's no way to not fast on Yom Kippur"

I dont think woman should stam NOT not fast, just don't think they should wait to not fast til they feel sick.

A pregnant woman is allowed to haev milk after meat just because she craves it, she doens't have to wait until the craving is intense. Why should she wait till she has intense hunger pangs before she breaks her fast on yom kippur?

Jessica said...

FS - You brought up this example earlier and I still maintain that you cannot use a decree from a rabbi for pregnant women when you're trying to argue that rabbeim should not paskin for pregnant women.

With that example though, I have heard it (so this is not me being a snot and doubting you), but where is the source for it? I would like to read up on it a bit more.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: My point was that if you already do listen to rabbi's, how could you listen to them if the points logically conflict.

I'm almost positive the source is in sforno.

Jessica said...

perek? passuk?

frumskeptic said...

Looking into it.

Jessica said...

Thanks.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: my sister threw out her notes, and the person I emailed has no idea where to find it. So I'm going to wait for my rabbi to return from camp, and then ask him.

Sorry. I don't know who else to ask.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: I asked a guy at work and he never even heard of it. lol.

I feel so bad now. but my sister emailed askmoses for the source. The guy said she should receive it in 24 hours.

Jessica said...

Thanks -- I did a search online, but was really only able to find two lines on the subject. It seems it is a bit more complicated than "a pregnant woman can eat milk immediately after meat" though. It said that if she chewed on a piece of meat then spit it out she, according to most opinions, only needs to wait 3 hours until she can eat dairy. The most lenient opinion said she only needs to wait one hour.

frumskeptic said...

Jessica: I couldnt find anything at all on google. And askmoses replied that they had no idea what my sister was talking about, even though the guy she was chatting with said he heard of it, but was unable to get a source because he was online. must be a different guy did it. I'll reemail I gues, or just wait for my Rabbi to come back like I initially intended too.

But generally, If i said "immediately" I meant "almost immediatelY" and an hour to me, is that, cuz after waiting so long on a regular day an hour is nothing. lol


But I know a few people, and the bums don't have sources, who waited an hour (while pregnant), and husbands said they learned it. Which really bothers me. My sister learned an hour in school, but she threw out her notes. So I don't know.

I guess in that sense my argument is invalid. But if I do find a source (and I hope so when rabbi comes back) I'll get back to you.

Otherwise, some communities wait 3 hours regularly. I don't think that when she's pregnant she would have to spit it out.

I'm very annoyed by this lack of source thing, mostly because I KNOW there was a source. Sister learned it in halacha class. ERRR!!

Jessica said...

I thought I had googled "sforno pregnant meat" and found the source, but when I did it just now, no sources popped up. Though a link to this post was number 3 on the page. lol.

Shmendrik said...

In case anyone is still reading it, this thread is chock-full of misinformation.

"No Torah source says that a pregnant women must fast."

Well, if you're talking about 9 B'Av, and by Torah you mean Chumash, that's trivially true because 9 B'Av is obviously not mentioned in the Chumash. If you include the Gemarah (our only source for an obligation for anyone to fast on 9 B'Av), it explicitly states that pregnant woman must fast. However, a person who becomes sick from fasting need not complete their fast on 9 B'Av, whether they are pregnant or not. This obviously also applies if there is danger to the fetus.

The Chumash makes no exceptions for fasting on Yom Kippur, and the Gemarah teaches that the only exceptions are where fasting endangers your life or that of the fetus.

As for all those people who seem to be self-appointed medical experts, where did you come by this knowledge? Leora E seems to take it for granted that pregnant women should not fast and should not even consult their doctors. In fact, many doctors believe that it is perfectly fine for pregnant women to fast. There is actually a large body of research on this topic, although much of it involves Ramadan fasting, which is sort of like having a month straight of 17 B'Tammuz, but no 25 hour period of fasting. In any case, pregnant women should obviously consult their doctors.

The first comment on this thread, by lady e, was also way off the mark. It is far more important to fast on Yom Kippur (mentioned in the Chumash as a prohibition with a penalty of spiritual excision) than to daven or do teshuva. This applies to anyone, man or woman, who has the choice between lying in bed sick for the entire day or going to shul. Halachicly, there's no question that being sick but completing the fast is preferable.

mlevin said...

Shmendrik – Are you out of your mind? You are comparing RamAdam where people fast only during daylight and are allowed to drink water with YomKippur/TishaB’Ov where one is not allowed to eat and drink for over 25 hours!!!

Please reread the all the comments where at length I described why hydration is necessary in pregnant women and how lack of it will harm babies by releasing toxins into their forming bodies. You will also notice how most women said that they do not fast a full day while pregnant or nursing.

Full day fasting without food and without water may not be (in most cases) lethal to a baby but it has been proven by those in medical profession that it does induce early labor and/or it does harm a development of a child.

Not sure about you, but I would prefer my babies born in their finest physical and mental development. That would mean that if I do not fast full day on Yom Kippur and TishaB’Ov my children would be stronger and smarter.

Shmendrik said...

Ah, nice to see that someone is still reading this.

Ramadan fasting involves abstaining from all food and water from sunrise to sundown. Depending on your geographical location and when in the solar year the month of Ramadan falls out, this could be up to 18 hours long. I'm not at all sure why it's so obvious to you that repeated fasts for most of the day for a month are less stressful than a single 24 hour fast.

Your assertion regarding the buildup of toxins in the body caused by fasting sound interesting, but where's your proof? In my experience, "buildup of toxins" is a buzzword used by the alternative medicine crowd and is rarely found in evidence-based medicine.

Similarly, you have not substantiated your claim that fasting is proven to harm the mother or the fetus. I was told by an OB/Gyn (who is the head of his department at a major research hospital) that fasting for a day does not cause any harm to pregnant woman or her fetus, where there are no prior risk factors.

As W. Edwards Deming said, in God we trust, all others bring data.

frumskeptic said...

"Ramadan fasting involves abstaining from all food and water from sunrise to sundown. "

Not quite. They are allowed to drink water. Mom's best friends husband is a muslim. My best friend from 7th grade was a muslim. Then there were the few I spoke to in college and they all drank.

So maybe medical evidence is alright if the woman is hydrated.

Infact, everytime I say "fasting" every non-Jew automatically assumes I'll be drinking. So really, I do not know.


Also, Where is the source? Curious to see the context.

frumskeptic said...

I meant "So Really I do not know what you are talking about no food OR drink because they CAN drink"

mlevin said...

Thank you fs for answering for me.

Shmedrik-We humans do not eat 24 hours straight. We eat 3-4 times per 24 hour period. So if a moslem pregnant woman eats at night instead of daylight she not stressing her body. Quite different from not eating/drinking anything for over 25 hours.

Next time you speak to OBGYN please specify that by 25+ hours fasting you also include not drinking anything.

The Babysitter said...

I haven't read the last couple of comments here, so I'm not replying to the post. But I just noticed that it said 99 comments, so I figured I'd make it a 100!

nmf #7 said...

Just read this thread from a LONG time ago- found it very interesting. I linked to you:
http://israelchronicles.blogspot.com/2008/10/blog-reading-while-sick.html

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