Thursday, August 14, 2008

KGB/Yeshiva Part 3

Part 3- Lying as a survival mechanism.

As seen in post 1 and post 2 the frum community is full of psycho control freaks trying to one-up themselves by coming up with crazy chumras. They ban everything and anything and then spy and tell on each other to ensure their control remains intact. The obvious outcome of being in costant fear of doing something wrong, is doing it anyway, but lying about it; making lying a survival mechanism when it comes to being frum.

The ability to lie has become a survival mechanism. People lie about how frum they are and go miles away to go on beaches just so they won't get caught and have their kids kicked out of school. They lie about where they go on vacation and they lie about what they eat and how they dress. This is all because of pressure from the schools.

When it comes to "outside influences" frummies are Kings at lying. They master things like hiding TV's in refrigerator boxes to get them into houses, and then hiding them behind furniture, or hiding little TV's under their beds. These people have to constantly fear their neighbors will find out or their kids will innocently squel about the TV's (or internet, or secular books, or newspapers) so they teach their kids to lie. On school admissions applications people are known to lie about the availability of TV and internet access. Heck, in 10th grade half the girls just forged their mom's signatures on notes saying they were allowed to use the internet (because it was just so dumb to ask the moms, they all used the internet already-with her permission).

What about how BT's are suggested to "conveniently leave out" information of their past, such as how they might've attended Public School?

What about people who lie to their kids on their ability to support them in kolel? The one's who are hugely in debt, yet claim they can afford 5 daughters marreid to bums, just so the girls get "good shidduchim." Lying comes naturally to the frum.

What irks me most is when these people justify their lying by claiming that all they're doing is "Playing the Game." They're not playing the game, they're lying because they lack scruples and fear the opinion of their neighbor more than Gd. If they really beleived in the work of Gd, they'd stop lying and trust Gd to make everything work out, simply because they're doing whats right.

The KGB was no better. The KGB was so incontrol that people adapted lying as a second langauge. I had friends growing up who were taught that everyone lied, because their parents had the Soviet mentality instilled in them. These girls used to lie about everything, and they lived in the US!

Back in the former Soviet Union, my mom had family that was affiliated with Jewish groups (super hidden stuff), therefore, around pesach time, my mom's family was able to get matzoh (not that they had any idea what Pesach was, or why they ate matzoh, but they did know matzoh was some sort of Jewish food). My mom remembers how she was told not to share the matzoh and not give it or show it to anyone.

In the Soviet Union lying was more than just hiding matzoh. It was a fact of life. The people had to constantly cheat and steal in business. If they were honest, they wouldn't be able to survive. Kind of like the frum people, if they are honest about their pasts, their actions on vacations and weekends, and honest about how much secular influences they allow in the home, they'd never get their kids in the right school, and then their kids wouldn't be able to find the right shidduch, and then they end up as good as dead. They're nothing.

The frum community needs serious help. More Rabbi's have to start concentrating on how sad it is that lying is a fact of life, and find a solution. They need to practice their own teachings, especially those on bechira-each person having a level they're on, and the grow in it, because they are ready to take the next step, not because Insert yeshiva institutions name here decided the families are required to keep certian things.

Anyway, there will be a part 4 next week. :-).

26 comments:

Moshe said...

Well, the obvious solution is to ban more stuff because that will help people understand the importance of banning stuff.
Also, they really should ban lying because then people will stop lying.

mlevin said...

You can't ban lying!!! [shuddering in panick] how else will people be able to marry and how else will children be accepted into schools?

Don't even mention it. Horrible, horrible thought.

frumskeptic said...

i like the idea of banning more things. Then ppl will feel the rush of being rebelious or s/t, and then we can have more shuirim on how bad it is to allow the banned things into our homes, schools. and how they affect our lives.

And then the I'll have more blog material :-)

therollingdice said...

Ha, 2 days ago I applied my son to cheder and on the application I had a choice of filling out:

* We dont have a computer at home
* We do have a computer at home without internet
* We have a computer at home for business purposes

and I checked the 3rd one because I have it at home for business purposes. YES we do use it for other stuff as well and I do show my 2.5 yr old home videos and very rarely videos from Jewish Singers.

My mother said I am crazy and they wont accept my son... well, you know what I answered her. They are not the only cheder here where I live and I am NOT ready to HIDE my computer. ITS A PART OF OUR LIFE!!!!

There is no reason in LYING and then if they find out somehow they should throw out my son. I rather they know from the beginning and it is their school so they have to decide to accept my son or not.



I'll let you know. I am still waiting they should call that he is accepted.

Anonymous said...

The more they BAN the more I KNOW what I AM ALLOWED TO DO!!!!!!!! ;-)

The Babysitter said...

I don't understand the point in lying. You either want to follow the system or you don't. If you don't believe in the system don't lie about what you do so that you appear to be following the system. In other words, people shouldn't lie about having a tv or internet or anything if they believe they are doing the "right" thing by having it. Once your lying it shows that you think there's something to hide. If their hiding their TV's then they think they shouldn't have it. So then either have it for all to see or don't have it. I mean I understand people hiding expensive stuff so that people won't rob them. But "hiding" the truth about whether the family has internet or other such stuff is saying you feel there is something wrong with, and therefore shouldn't have it, if that's what you believe.

Your not supposed to hide your past no matter how bad it may seem, if you use it as a stepping stone then it can make an even better impression.

Moshe said...

You're saying that because you're not married and don't have kids. Those people don't think there's anything wrong with what they're lying about, they just want their kids to go to yeshiva and the only way they'll get accepted is by lying.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter, I don't mean to sound mean, or condescending, but I really think that you're very naive when it comes to the schooling/shidduchim in the frum community.

It is VERY hard to find a decent school to send your kids into. VERY VERY hard.

When my sister was applying to HS (after a BY from 6-8th grade) my Rabbi told her not to mention that my sister went to PS from K-5.

Luckily she got into the school she went to, and she didn't lie about it, but had she not gotten in (and her school is VERY competitive) she would've either
a) had to lie
b) gone to the HS i went to (and I really DIDN"T want her to do that)
c) go to shulamis, which my parents (as well as sister) realllly didn't want for various reasons.

If you want your kid in a school that doesn't treat Jewish subjects as more than just another class on a schedule, you have to lie about your past to get in. Its that simple.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter, I know plenty of people who see nothing wrong with TV/Internet, but they don't want their kids kicked out.

They hide it for that reason and that reason only, they don't want their kids kicked out.


These schools are psycho nazi's.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter: With the mannaquin, it seems that its just a small town got together and decided they didn't like it, then took action.

Frum people don't "get together and decide" to ban certain things. Rabbi's get together and choose to ban things they know absolutely nothing about (cause they've never actualy used the net or watched TV).

The Miley Cyrus one is parents as INDIVIDUALS happen to not like the idea of their daughters listening to her. The mayor isn't coming out saying "Girls in this town should not listen to Miley Cyrus" which is what is happeneing in the frum community. When a leadr of a community goes and bans something he is taking away teh rights of the people.

As a parent my mom has (or well had since I'm legal) the right to tell me what I can/cannot listen too, because I am her responsibility.

A rabbi can give advice, which would be fine, but to BAN is wacko and controlling and wrong

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: When you put it that way, You are probably right.

FrumSkeptic: I understand, you have a point. But I still don't think lying is the answer. What good will it do if they find out, it will be worse that you lied. This may be my naivity showing through again, but I believe that if your honest about the situation and explain the circumstances whatever they will be, then the school should be understanding.

I have an unusual background, going from a super frum school to BC. But yet, I wouldn't lie about it. I'm happy with the choices I made, and I feel there's nothing wrong with it. I say proudly that I'm in BC.

But then again I remember hearing how hard it was for children to get accepted in Yeshivas, no matter what the parents did at home.

I would say the school shouldn't ask such questions, about internet and TV. But I can see why they ask,

About the banning stuff, I see the difference. But then again a Rabbi's talmud is like his son, so a Rabbi feels the responsibility of making sure his community is doing the right thing.

But I do agree with you that more research should be done before banning stuff. But then again I try to look up to the Rabbi's, when I don't understand them I try to tell myself that they know best and I'm just not on their level to understand it.

Moshe said...

The school will be understanding when cows fly in a frozen hell.

Going to BC is not very shocking. If you would've went to NYU or Pace, that would be something.

The rabbis doing the banning are not rabbis of small communities nor are most of the people affected their talmidim.

The Babysitter said...

About lying, there were stories in the yated where people were asked to bring packages for other people to Israel, and they took the packages and when security asked them if they have packages from other people, they LIED and said no. Then they were found to have drugs or diamonds, and because they had LIED they got themselves in Jail. There was one especially said story, where a couple lied and said no, then they found drugs in something they had brought and the couple was sentenced 5 years in jail. The wife gave birth in Jail and had her sons bris in Jail. Sounded horrible. All this could have been avoided if they would have just been honest and not lied that they were taking packages for others. When my parents were going to Israel, someone asked them to take along Tylenol and some other stuff, when security asked my father if he brought packages from anyone else. My father was honest and he said straight away he was taking stuff for other people and he didn't know who the people were, but was bringing it, they checked the stuff and it was all ok.

The Babysitter said...

Moshe: in that case where the school's won't be understanding. Then I think the parents have a decision to make. Which is more important, that their child gets into the school, or that they have the TV, and they will have to make a sacrifice.

Well considering I was the only one from my HS within like 10 years to go to BC it was a big thing.

ok, that may be true. But about the bans, their not Halachas, so their just suggestions, no? So there's no reason to get all worked up about them.

FrumSkeptic: didn't you say before that the Rabbi's should make it that woman are not allowed to fast. Wouldn't that be a ban?

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter:

"Which is more important, that their child gets into the school, or that they have the TV, and they will have to make a sacrifice."

Some people want both. There should be NO reason why they have to choose. Definitly not the schools place to put people in sucha position. Thats called BANNING.

The rabbi's shouldnt BAN fasting, they should just inform woman that its a dumb thing to fast.

I have no problem with Rabbi's talking on and on about how bad TV is, I don't think they should becasue they have NO idea what it is, but thats a persons decision if they choose to listen to them or not, but to BAN it is complete and utter nonsense.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter:

I read those stories about people lying about the packages. People are morons. This has nothing to do with lying.

We lied to get stuff on ElAL, and the stuff was given to us by a VERY close family friend. WE knew what it was, so while we didn't exactly purchase everything on our own, we still knew and w/e.

Those idiots in the yated took stuff from random people at the airport who looked frum. That was just dumb.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: I agree that it would be better if people wouldn't have to choose. But what can the school do about it, they don't want certain kids influencing the rest of the class. There are mothers that complain to schools about their kids classmates who have TV's. Then the principal gives a speech to all the mothers encouraging them not to have TV's.

I agree with you then about the informing v. banning.

That's true, it was silly for them to take packages from random people. But some said that it was people they knew, like one of them was a good time friend, who had given him boots that had diamonds, or maybe it was the coffee one, yea the coffee one that had diamonds, there it was an old friend, he thought he could trust.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter: the boot had diamonds in the heel. I think thast the story. I'm completely blank on the coffee one though, is that the one with the crack in it?

Mothers who complain about the kids who have a TV shouldn't blame the TV they should complain about the bad parenting.

i have a TV and I was raised mostly in a PS (from K-8) and my Rabbi once asked my father "How did your daughters come out so nice after Public School"

and my dad was like "whats the school got to do with it?"

Its all the parents. If the kid watches TV as a babysitter, then the kid will be messed up. IF the kid watches TV with the parents (which I'll admit wasn't always the case with me and sister) the kid will learn and ask questions, and the parents will be able to sensor certain things, like turn the channel if a scene is innappropriate or s/t. Its all the parents. The schools shouldn't lecture mom's to give up TV's, rather they should lecture them on how to be moms.

Maybe if I have time I'll make a post on TV or s/t.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: you have a very good point, I agree with you, its all in the parenting. It's so true. Cause there are even families without TV's and their children can be worse, so people just use the TV as something to blame, instead of taking responsibility for themselves.

Also, I was having a conversation about TV and movies, and someone said that TV is a lower form, and better than movies. I never thought of it that way, I thought movies were better cause you control it more.

frumskeptic said...

I also would consider movies better. who knows. lol.

I guess with a TV you can always put parental blocks on, whereas in movies you're relying on someone else for ratings.

Moshe said...

I say movies are better because you know what you're watching and you can't switch channels. Though American movies suck mostly and of TV, all we watch is Avatar, House, Bones and Scrubs. Everything else is Japanese movies/cartoons and some Russian, Chinese and Korean. Some French movies too.

FS, totally. This idea is taken from goyim ironically. The democrat/liberal point of view is that kids are messed up because of TV, movies, video games, comics, etc. Nobody, however, mentions that the parents are actually supposed to raise the children and monitor what they do and to teach them right from wrong. Problem is the parents are kids themselves, even when they're 30 or 40.

therollingdice said...

and my son was accepted in cheder. The truth works!!!!

frumskeptic said...

Mazel tov! :)

William Dwek said...

The Swine Flu is common in PIGS.

This is a clear indication that it is the Dayanim – ‘Judges’ - and ‘Rabbis’ of today who are the PIGS and swines.

They twist and use the Torah for their own power and commercial benefit.

They are corrupt. And they are interested in only one thing:

MONEY.

Not the Torah.

William Dwek said...

When ‘dayanim’ and ‘rabbis’ use the Torah for their own power and commercial profit, this is the behaviour of a swine i.e. a Pig.

No other ‘rabbi’ will ever act against another ‘rabbi’ - even when he knows his colleague is clearly desecrating the Torah. Each rabbi is only worried about losing his own position.

Therefore, the ‘rabbi’ and ‘dayan’ will never effect justice. And he will never truly stand for the Torah or the Honour of Hashem. His pocket will always prevail.

The Torah must never be used for commercial gain and profit. Am Yisrael can only be lead by those who have the necessary love and respect of Hashem and the Torah.

William Dwek said...

1. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may use lies. They turn the innocent into the guilty, and the guilty, become the innocent. They will not hesitate to tell lies in the Synagogue.

2. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may steal. They steal and siphon off money for themselves, from the community and individuals.

3. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may shame a Jew in public, even repeatedly. This is one of the most vile acts of murder in Jewish law – and they know this.

4. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ will not hesitate to use Lashon Hara - the ‘Evil Tongue’ - to suit his own ends. Slander and gossip. This too, is one of the worst acts of murder in Jewish Law. Their slander is never challenged by the community, because they hold positions of power. And the slander may begin with the Rebbetzin herself.

5. The ‘dayanim’ and ‘rabbis’ worship idols and other gods. Their only god is Money. Especially the ‘Dayanim’ – the ‘Judges’ who sit on a Beit Din. They only care about their high incomes and retirement packages. They have little or no love for the Torah or Hashem.

In the case of Lubavitch/Chabad, all their rabbis are carrying out a form of Avodah Zarah – strange worship. They are using mediation and intercession. This is completely forbidden, and against the Torah. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem, directly ourselves.

6. When the NAME of Hashem has been taken in Vain – repeatedly - by reshaim, the ‘rabbi’ will turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the

CHILLUL HASHEM.

This is the abhorrent behaviour of a Pig.

This is an extremely severe and dangerous situation.

There is NO forgiveness for this evil sin and aveirah.

7. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may also offer large bribes, tell lies and bring False Witnesses – when he in fact has committed the crime. These are heinous acts of the most despicable kind. This is especially vile when the ‘dayan’ is sitting on a ‘Bet Din.’

8. The ‘rabbi’ may commit adultery. And when he gets divorced, he may spread slander about his own ex-wife, blackening her name – when in fact he was at fault.

9. The ‘dayan’ and ‘rabbi’ may also desecrate Shabbat – if it suits him. He will use physical violence to assault another Jew or Jewess at any time. This evil and venomous behaviour is 100% against the Torah.